Sphinn - Sphinn - SEM Attention Wars | Andy Beard

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Sphinn - SEM Attention Wars | Andy Beard - Niche Marketing

Went Hot: July 23, 2007 - 4:59 am
Posted By: robwatts 713 days ago
Topic Type: News Story (Jump to http://andybeard.eu)
Category: SEM Industry

Great post on Sphinn from Andy, lots of good insights and observations

12 Comments

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from dannysullivan 713 days ago #

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Here's what I left for Andy:

Thanks for the write-up, Andy. Some answers/comments:

We do use Pligg, and it is extremely heavily customized, more so than you realize. You'll understand this more as voting increases, plus as we bring features for social networking online. We can do tagging but shut it off at the start because we have extensive categories -- and despite what you say, I'm amazed that the majority of people are putting stuff in the right or appropriate categories. I love what Bumpzee is doing with social, and we intend to increase that side of things as well.

I tried to mention other services in various ways to be fair to them as I try to be fair to other sites that compete with say, Search Engine Land. PlugIM should have been in that welcome post -- honestly, I just forgot it. I might add something down the line to list other types of community sites like these, sort of similar to how I have a blogroll or when SEWF launched, I maintained a Forum Roll (that was removed after I left there). We have the social profiles area when people sign-up, and I think I already requested that PlugIM be added since someone requested that.

Yes, MyBlogLog went away since we have our own community, so Sphinn will be promoted more.

Sort of amazed you don't think Sphinn won't shine light to those who should get more. I'm amazed and pleased at how many new sites I've discovered through Sphinn. Thrilled, really.

Sorry you feel we shouldn't have had our own community site and just gotten behind some other sites. I suppose SEWF and HighRankings and DigitalPoint and V7N should all close down and get behind WebmasterWorld? We have an existing community at Search Engine Land. That community deserves the ability to find a home where they can communication and share between themselves. That's what Sphinn is. Sphinn may also grow a superset beyond the SEL community. But no, I don't agree that we can't have a community or one that involves voting simply because others are out there. By that matter, I should have never started Search Engine Land. Plenty of blogs, right?

I think the other sites will do well if they have their own communities as well. In addition, people often use more than one place or site. I've been thinking about this site for well over a year, before some of the others even launched. I could have thought well darn, someone else is there, guess we can't do it. Instead, I'd rather think we can exist with them, in the same way multiple forums all thrive and survive.

from Eavesy 713 days ago #

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I disagree with you Andy on this one, I think Sphinn has got loads of really cool and unique features like the profile pages and being able to submit discussions. It is alreday my 2nd favorite social media site after Netscape but it may overtake Netscape soon.

from dannysullivan 713 days ago #

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And added a bit more, too!

Couple of other things, too, Andy. You'd written we haven't promoted Sphinn well on the site. Yes, because as I said in my launch post, it's still in beta. When we have a few more features in place and all the bugs out, it will be more prominent throughout. You're probably judging a bit early.

Also, I really do feel sensitive when you somehow suggest that Bumpzee isn't thriving because I or others in the community somehow haven't given it the attention it deserves. What I see there looks good, especially some of the social groupings, but I've deliberately not played much on the site to keep my own mind clear in terms of building Sphinn.

But things that are good get attention -- they do. We run links to many things across the web. Any SearchCap newsletter we put out has more links to articles that are NOT written by Search Engine Land than are. If Bumpzee had a groundswell of discussion, you'd see that reflected.

Now, SearchCap is focused around search, so that's one reason why we might not have mentioned it so much -- it might not have been coming up in the search feeds we monitor. Bumpzee instead seems more focused on affiliate marketing? If affiliate sites have been discussing it, then we might not have been seeing that discussion because we don't drill into affiliates.

Sphinn, while not exclusively search marketing, is more focused in that area. PlugIM is for internet marketing (which is what we do, but probably with less emphasis there on search marketing). That should give all of these sites their own voices. And any of them, including Sphinn, will thrive not just because who they are or aren't associated with but because of how they grow and manage their communities.

Forget the technology. If technology were crucial, WMW which is widely acknowledge as having one of the poorest forum technology basis and features, would have been dead years ago. It thrives because of a strong community there. If all of these sites build strong communities, they'll continue on. John's SearchMob, for example, doesn't seem to have much activity or community there despite him having RSS readers that dwarf what SEL has. So you can't just attach a name and assume "oh, that's why it will do well." As for mentions, by the way -- SEW and WMW have yet to mention Sphinn at all. Is that because of anti-competitive concerns? Maybe. Or maybe mentioning other sites isn't deemed as much of news value. In either case, initial attention is only a kick start. It's not what keeps you going. To come back with the comparison you want to make with Jason, he's the master of constantly kick-starting and re-kick starting attention to what he does. At Sphinn, I think we're going to have a community that grows because those in the community itself will like what they see, what they are doing and invite others in.

I get a sense in part you feel Bumpzee is somehow hard done by me, perhaps in part because you're active there (Google gives me over 7,000 matches for your name there, versus 45 at PlugIM). Bumpzee, I assume, is a community you've actively invested in. You should continue to do that. If it's a strong, healthy community, it will keep coming just as mulitple search forums. Of course, you're welcome to take part in Sphinn, as well :)

from robwatts 713 days ago # - show/hide this comment

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Early days for me with Sphinn - I love things like this and have played with a few across the board. All have their own unique place and part to play, be it WMW, HR, SU, DP, Digg, BC, MBL, Bzee,Spicypage, PlugIM and now Sphinn.

I'm not going to teach anyone to suck eggs on what does and what doesn't make for a successful community as there are far better qualified people around to do that. It's also down to the project originators to make a project sink or swim. Some come out of the blocks running, whereas others have to work that little harder.

The bottom line is that quality and usefulness will win out of course! Most of the above have seen significant growth and interest establishing their various little communites that overlap. This is the great thing about social marketing, it truly is social. People really do use this stuff and much of it is compliementary, there IS plenty of room for everyone regardless of what sector or part they are seeking to play. You've only got to look at the myriad of blogs that cover similar topics to see that. Personalities drive things, hardly an earth shattering revelation no, but if you look at those that exist, all have their own distinct flavour and shape. I gotta say too that it's pretty cool that in regard to competition all of this is very healthy as it keeps all of us on our toes whilst giving us options and insights and food for thought for new ideas and projects.

Hats off to all, and thanks :)

from Lyndon 713 days ago #

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I mostly echo Rob's thoughts on this.

I liked what Andy said more because I'm a contrarian than because I agree. I always thing that you learn more when a discusion with differing views takes place.

I also like what Danny said, reveals a lot and makes things more interesting.

But like Rob says, the pond is deep enough for some big fish (especially in the UK at the moment), I'm looking forward to watching sphinn unfold. I'm witholding judegement at the moment as it's still in beta.

So far so good, the discourse regarding "vote for me cos I'm me", is interesting for 5 seconds until you realise that that popular people are popular cos they are.....popular. And as a self promoting marketeer, I have to respect that some people get votes, not because of the post, but because of who they are.

But listen, if a numpty like me can make it to the front page anyone can. :)

from bwelford 713 days ago #

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I think Andy Beard is being like King Canute here. You can no more stop social media from being sociable than the good king could stop the tide from coming in.

We don't all fall into an orderly lineup here. It's like a noisy reception. Just grab a glass and wade in.

from AndyBeard 713 days ago # - show/hide this comment

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I am just going to follow Danny's example and post a copy of the reply I just made on my blog.

This post has already split attention in a number of ways and it demonstrates what is wrong with this approach.

1. It was submitted to Sphinn by Rob (thanks) but it is in the SEM Industry category which whilst appropriate, is not the same category as all the other articles related to Sphinn.

There are no links to related content that has been submitted that might have been possible if tagging was in some way being used.

There was no possibility to submit the article to multiple categories

2. Split social media attention

Lyndon reviewed it on SU, though currently no one else has so far reviewed it or given a thumbs up, even though they might have given it a Sphinn

Someone bumped the story on Bumpzee, and I have since also given it a bump.

The story was automatically Plugged, but so far despite talking favourably about PlugIM it hasn't gained any additional votes, even though with PlugIM anyone can vote on a story, they don't have to even be a member of PlugIM, and clicking on the button doesn't take you away from the page.

3. Split conversations

This is bound to happen, especially when people copy and paste their comments here onto Sphinn as well ;)

Bumpzee has a way to partially handle this, by indicating on Bumpzee that there is also conversation happening on the blog.

4. Contrariety

Lyndon on Sphinn has expressed that he often votes for stuff that offers contrary opinions.

That is why I love lots of the content Lyndon writes, and why I appreciate him as a regular reader.

I don't write content to offer a deliberate contrary view.

That being said I don't write content that will express the same views as those already stated by everyone else. If I can't offer an original perspective, I generally won't give any perspective on something, as that wouldn't be adding to the conversation, just creating an echo chamber.

5. All those forums

Yes there are loads of SEO forums, who has time for them?

There are lots of internet marketing forums as well, I haven't got time for those either.

Affiliate marketing forums? Most of them I have never even visited.

When they all introduce their own Pligg sites, who is going to have time for them? Sure they will capture their own dedicated userbase, but ultimately people will migrate to a site that will give them the most benefit.

I have noticed lots of top Digg users since the launch of Sphinn still submitting and spending more time on Digg than on Sphinn.

There is already only partial cross-over between Bumpzee and PlugIM, in fact my blog is probably one of the very few cross-over points.

Most adoption of PlugIM seems to have originated on the Warrior Forum or those marketers who started off there and moved on, and adoption of Bumpzee is mainly by people who came from other Affiliate marketing forums that concentrate on the CPA networks like CJ.

At the same time I have probably introduced lots of "bloggers" from MyBlogLog and Blogcatalog to Bumpzee, and eventually the different communities will begin to intermingle.

The problem isn't one more, or even 5 or 10 more, but potentially 50 more sites all touching on the same niche.

The reason Digg is successful is because it dominates the niches it covers. Why not start a new site in Tech? Because it is dominated by a single player that is the only one anyone will have time for.

Netscape has a chance in Politics because there are multiple sides to the political spectrum.

Whilst you might think that there is plenty of room for all, ultimately that is a plan for market fragmentation not consolidation.

6. Time Invested

It is true I have a fair amount of time invested in Bumpzee, but not so much in the SEO community there - my time is mainly spent managing the Dofollow community I run there, not specifically the SEO community, but because of the nature of Bumpzee, with all my SEO articles being fed to the SEO community, and all my Web2.0 articles being fed to the Web2.0 community, plus other communities, it would show an abnormal amount of usage, because my content appears in many places.

Other than specific discussions in the community I run, I rarely make a comment unless I chance across a topic while I am handling other things.

As it happens Search Engine Land is one of the top users of PlugIm with the most submitted stories because they are submitted automatically.

There does seem to be a bug in the auto submission there, which I just have to work out and then inform Ryan.

7. Comments System

I agree SEL needs a new comments system, I rarely leave a comment on SEL because it is so inconvenient logging into Typekey all the time, and then monitoring conversation.

That doesn't mean that all is perfect, I notice the message system on Sphinn I can't see a record of messages I have sent (Bumpzee has a similar problem, as does MBL)

For me, a comments system that might be actively used on Spinn by some users is a negative.

Responding to comments on Spinn is an unwelcome distraction, and in many ways is my least favorite part of all the networks I belong to.

8. Customization

Whilst the friends system (which I noted I hadn't played around with much at the time) is probably the major customization carried out so far, it currently doesn't seem very useful.

I can use it to see what specific friends have submitted, but it doesn't allow me to see a merged list of articles I might be interested in, or allow me to grab a feed based on friends submissions.

Ultimately there are so many features needed for each of the competing services in the niche to "come up to par" with what is already offered by the giants, that a diversified "there is room for all of us" approach isn't very realistic.

Split attention and split resources

from dannysullivan 713 days ago #

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Well, I wasn't going to keep cross posting actually, but I'll give the responses one more go. Andy, if you want to keep in one place, can I suggest here. But if you'd rather, I'll response only over there to you. I thought it was important to respond there for your audience, which is why I did both initially.

OK, Andy....

1) Yes, things can only be in one category. Tagging can help with that. Pligg comes with tags. Problem is, you can abuse the tags to make an unlimited number of pages. For that reason, we've kept them off for now. We might bring them back. SEM Industry I think is far more appropriate than the Sphinn Zone category, which is for stuff about Sphinn itself. This post isn't just about Sphinn -- it's about the impact of Sphinn and other sites on the SEM Industry in general. I'd say that Rob selected the perfect category.

2) Split attention because the story is on more than one place? I suppose then every blog should either shut down or carry every story that everyone else carries. Different audiences frequent different places and have different tastes. You think this is relevant to your audience here. Someone submitted it to Sphinn thinking it was relevant there. Someone could submit it to Digg, and I'm pretty certain it will die an unnoticed death over there. So what? Audiences and those producing content can choose what they want. It's called variety, and it's to be welcomed.

3) I put my initial comments over at Sphinn, but I won't keep splitting them up. In particular, the conversation may go one way there and another way somewhere else. But again, so what? I mean when Matt Cutts posts, he gets like a billion comments, right? But no one then says oh, every other blog shouldn't post about what he's written or that they should close their own comments. My goodness, ever read the comments for something Matt might generate at his own blog versus a Threadwatch take? Different audiences; different voices.

4) Nothing to add here :)

5) No, you mistakenly assume that all users will migrate to one site, in my opinion. The search forums experience ought to underscore that. Communities form. Some are more important than others in terms of audience size, sure. But they all tend to have their places. I talk to people who assume the world revolves around WMW; then you talk to a High Rankings person, and they're like WMW what?

You've noticed top Diggers spending more time on Digg? Well, um, duh. Of course. I mean, you read my launch message, where I said Sphinn wasn't designed to take on Digg nor did I at all think it would be a replacement for it. Nor do I. There are search marketers and internet marketers who simply do not feel at home on Digg. However, they like the idea of voting and sharing. So Sphinn is designed to give them their own place, and plenty of people so far have said it is doing just that. As will Bumpzee and PlugIM, of course, for people who like those sites.

Will we get 50 voting and social networking sites for search marketing? Probably not. Five or 10? Maybe. And the audience is plenty large to support those. If not, we'll see -- but I fail to understand what the issue is other than the impression you thing Sphinn shouldn't have launched because you find Bumpzee to be technically superior. I've already commented that it's not all about the technical feature set. I also disagree that Bumpzee somehow gets to be the only social site in the internet marketing space. Sorry, just don't.

By the way, Digg is successful more for appealing to a new audience in my view. Slashdot has not died, nor do I get the impression that Digg is fueled by Slashdotters who said thank goodness Digg arrived. Ultimately, until someone establishes OfSocial to oversee the launch and regulation of social sites, I think I'll assume audiences are smart enough to decide for themselves. It's just terrible logic, honestly. Let's tell Yahoo, Microsoft and Ask to go home -- clearly, we should just have Google, lest there be market fragmentation.

7) Commenting system will improve -- again, that's why we haven't switched over. That's why we're still in beta. But you should see a list of all the threads you've commented in within your profile. You just can't directly jump to them, nor see them listed out as you can on the comment page itself. Again, we're working on it. I think we're like 10 days old :)

By the way, if responding to comments is distracting, then don't. I mean, don't submit or don't participate. No one is forcing you to. But if you want to, and it helps, eventually you'll be able to subscribe to a feed just for stories you want to monitor. Sorry it wasn't ready for when we launched in beta.

8) Friends will be more useful, and again, I simply don't agree that somehow we have to leave it all to Digg or Facebook or whatever. Who's right? Well, we'll see.

from MattMcGee 712 days ago #

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I gave Bumpzee a try a few months ago at the same time as most of my SEO friends also gave it a try. It seemed to hit our collective radars all at once.

I submitted some stuff, bumped some stuff, made a couple dozen friends, and ... nothing. Got no traffic, no links, nada.

Same thing happened two weeks when Sphinn launched. I've already documented on my blog the surge in traffic my blog saw from being on Sphinn's home page.

Since I blog about marketing, I'll give attention to tools that I think make sense from a marketing perspective. I wrote about Sphinn because it seems like it might be(come) a good marketing tool.

I've written about StumbleUpon for the same reason. About Flickr, Yahoo Answers, and others for the same reason.

That's why Bumpzee didn't deserve a post on my blog, and I suspect why few others in my circle of friends wrote about it, too. I gave it my time and got nothing back.

The best social media sites provide a return for the time you invest. As long as Sphinn continues to do so, I suspect the community will grow.

from bwelford 712 days ago #

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I guess the only blessing is that, even if you don't get human visitors as a result, the search engine spiders may recognize your efforts. So perhaps that higher relevancy Google thinks you have may have been helped by a Bumpzee or a PlugIM reference.

from everett 711 days ago #

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I agree with Matt. I've tried both Bumpzee and PlugIM, got to the front page a few times on each and didn't get a single link out of it, and very minimal traffic.

While I would like to take the high road and say that's not the reason I submit posts there, when I have a thousand things to do it just somehow doesn't seem quite as worthwhile to submit or even vote on those sites if I don't get any traffic from them.

Digg brought me IN because I wanted traffic and links. But I STAYED because I found so many great sites there. These days I end up submitting 30-40 non-SEO stories before you'll ever see something from my own blog. I have gone from an SEO using Digg for SMO to a Digger using Digg for entertainment and education. I think Sphinn will bring out the same in people. Just let the dust settle a bit.

from AndyBeard 704 days ago # - show/hide this comment

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I should point out that you don't have to submit individual articles to Bumpzee, you join the site, register your blog, and then join suitable communities for your content, and also submit your content to those sites.

If you don't display the widgets, you don't cultivate an audience, and you don't get votes.

Stating that Bumpzee isn't worth it is similar to saying having a subscribe button for Google Reader or even your RSS feed just isn't worth it.

I have received more traffic to my site from Bumpzee in July than from Google Reader, and I have over 500 GR subscribers.

Bumpzee didn't gain enough traction within the SEO industry to drive lots of traffic. That is a chicken and egg situation.

I have had a week to examine the benefits of Sphinn and what effect it is having on traffic patterns.

I have received a fair amount of traffic from Sphinn, with this and a number of other stories reaching the front page, which is great.

I have however noticed that I receive a lot less bumps, and possibly more significantly a lot less Diggs and Stumbles.

That can certainly be related to the content I have been writing.

What is significant is the value of the visitors I am receiving, because they are all fairly targeted to some of my content, and some of that traffic has resulted in subscribers.

I really need to get that feedburner subscriber tracking tip I read here implemented, so I can track the difference in subscribers.

Overall, although it might be just a seasonal thing, my traffic is significantly lower since Sphinn launched.