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"Editor's Picks" on Sphinn? You Decide!
Went Hot: November 1, 2007 - 9:52 am
Posted By: evilgreenmonkey 349 days ago
Topic Type: Discussion
Category: Sphinn Zone
46 Comments
Comments
I've spoken to quite a few people about Sphinn recently, most of them being seasoned internet marketers. One issue that I hear a lot from them is that they don't like all of the Sphinn-baiting and Digg style posts which tend to reach the homepage quite regularly. What reaches the home page is of course down to the masses, with Sphinn members voting for such stories.
Since becoming Editor in September, I've been keen on the idea of adding a page that only features breaking news, innovations and original discussions. This would be controlled by either myself as the Editor, or with the help of our fantastic team of mods. We would decide which stories get onto the page by manually selecting them. For the people who role their eyes at "Get #1 Rankings Using Meta Keywords" stories and "Top 10 Ways To Write A Top 10 Story For Sphinn" posts that sometimes/somehow end up on the front page, this list would offer a more digestible source of filtered industry news and discussion.
It would not replace the current home page or the idea of Sphinning a story - more of an additional method of searching for fresh and interesting information (like the What's New page to some extent). I think that the democratic process of Sphinning a story is important to this site and something that sets it apart from the rest, although some people just want to go to the site and see "This is the latest and most important news and discussion in SEM". By capturing the attention of these currently less active (but often highly experienced) members, we should see a much more lively forum for discussion on the big issues of the week.
This is similar to the SearchEngineWatch "Featured Threads" box which I used to manage, although I can see Sphinn's section being much more fresh and including stories which may not have grabbed mass intention yet elsewhere. Danny suggested having 3 or 4 "Picks" at the top of the home page instead of a dedicated "What's New" style page, although everything about this idea is up for debate.
I hope that I'm not just waffling here and that I've put across the idea and reasoning behind it clearly. The idea aims to help you all as Sphinn members, although I'd really love to hear your thoughts and suggestions on the potential feature/page.
I'm all for this idea. I'm one of those people you mention that sometimes rolls their eyes. Also, apart from that "sphinn-bait" or "digg-style posts angle", I'd also be interested to see if this allows more of the "lesser-known" sphinnsters to gain more exposure...
I would probably head to such a page first... As it is now I spend most of my time on the What's New page.
The downside of course is taking people like me off the What's New Page and end up Sphinning only what the mods have decided is good.
LocalHound,
Wouldn't you still visit both pages though, the "editors choice" and "what's new"?
In my mind it would just be another avenue to expose stories, rather than taking away from what's already here?
You know it. An editor's choice list here goes to the front of my daily reading list.
I vote yes.
Too many "Hot Topics" are rehashes of what others have already said and/or not-so-important. I trust the editors to pick good threads.
I think creating an page for 'editors picks' would be a nice idea, but of course it raises some questions?
Do you think over the course of any given week, there is ever a 'hot topic' or 'fresh news' that is missed by the community?
I would venture to say no, so I am not sure more complete coverage of industry news would ensue?
But, for users that just wanted to go to an 'editors picks' page for the days or weeks 'top' stories it could fit that need, as long as it did not dillute the democratic community which is so important to the whole Sphinn concept.
I like this idea very much. But it requires the mods to be totally unbiased and not hassled for votes. I think the implementation needs to be closely monitored for it to work. May I suggest:
1) It's made clear that mods are not to be contacted by posters suggesting they read, sphinn or recommend their articles (or else it will be no different to the system in place now). Maybe some type of penalty for posters who break this rule? Like no posting for 2 weeks or something?
2) Mods are only allowed to recommend a limited number of picks per week? To prevent some mods from doing all the work and/or influencing the picks?
Just some ideas
Doesn't it make more sense to just do that at Search Engine Land? (Or isn't it already being done there?)
Haha Jill, as has occurred several times I was about to say the same thing but when I get down to the most recent comment your wisdom is already here!
If you want to create an Editor's or Mod's picks page just call it SELand II... or start a competitor. Until then, this is a site for the community to vote on articles. You don't want to go down that path where posts by certain mods or so-called A-listers are pre-approved or posts by folks you don't like are pre-judged ala Kevin Rose. That's opening a can of worms that won't work on a social site.
I'm not a fan of the manipulation that occurs here sometimes, so I'd instead suggest that the Editor be allowed to use some tactics like Bury or even requiring certain types of submissions to have more than the pre-set # of sphinns before they go Hot.
For example, when a post that gets 20 of its required 21 votes from one cliche or another within 30 minutes of being posted, the Editor should be able to establish a higher threshold for that post before it can become Hot (or re-gain its Hot-ness). I know that ability does not currently exist within Pligg but it could be added for a few bucks by any half-decent PHP programmer.
I'm happy enough with checking the daily Search Engine Land email to be sure I haven't missed anything that Danny and crew considers worth reading.
Burgo,
Yes, I would. I like the What's new page. I would just be on it less. And the more I think about the whole idea, the more I like it.
It will be interesting to see if we now go down the "Spiral of Silence" :)
http://sphinn.com/story/11856
Jill makes a good point but it would be nice if there were more "vetting" of obvious redundancies in stories. That could be done behind the scenes as current moderator duties are now or in the form of another "editor's pick" designation given to a particular story. ie, it can still go hot as normal but gets an extra icon or graphic like you see on CNET product reviews as a nod from the editorial staff.
I agree with Lee re: more vetting -- Danny did a good job at this early on by cross-linking similar stories. But during his busy conference season that hasn't occurred much lately.
Maybe that's a better way to edit this site than by coming up with Editor's picks, or at least a good starting point. Try to stop excessive posts about the same topic by commenting rather than picking your own favorite.
From what I have seen SEL is doing something like that, in that sometimes stories are picked up there for a link before they have even gone hot on Sphinn due to it being good relevant content, and they even get a direct link.
There is also the problem that early stories that needed just 10 Sphinns to go hot are totally replaced by newer stories in the greatest hits because there are more people to vote on them.
I think greatest hits should be broken down by month
If the editor's pick page is threaded or groups related stories by topic in another way, I'd like it very much. It could also come with direct links to exceptional comments. Also each pick should have an editorial introduction, at least on group level. I don't think biased mods respectively editor(s) is a problem at Sphinn. An additional edited aggregator page won't make the new list less attractive, but supplement it in a way many sphinners will appreciate, me included. Finally, it cannot replace the crowd's wisdom, imagine an editor's pick page populated by unsphunn stories ... that's not very likely to happen.
A lot of us are still painfully missing Nick's old 'less noise more signal' news/thread pickings over at TW.
So I think 'editor picks' here could work well to fill that demand.
Need to make sure though that each story/post has a decent summary write-up, so users in a rush can get a quick, full mix of daily seo news within a couple of minutes.
SEL and others already provide enough of the top news story for me. I use Sphinn mostly for any editorial, commmentary and insight articles I might have missed. And that turns out to be where much of the dross is -- poorly written uninformed opinion (or fact), sphunn by a circle of friends. So, for me, something that will make the cream rise to the top in that area would be appreciated.
But again, a Bury (With a Reason) button might accomplish the same thing in the long run.
+1 What Maku said.
It's not replacing the front page so it's just another stream to choose from - should add value to the site.
Yes, yes, yes. Oh God, please yes.
Censorship - I am just kidding, I think it is a good idea.
I think it makes great sense to have it here (at least, if not on your other properties). I think it could serve as a great primary resource.
Assuming you only Sphinn quality stories, that page already exists:
http://sphinn.com/user/view/voted/login/evilgreenmonkey
Bookmark that page everyone! ;)
>"If you want to create an Editor's or Mod's picks page just call it SELand II"
You could make an arguement that everything on SEL is editor picked becuz the writers there are invited, it's not an open forum like here.
>"or even requiring certain types of submissions to have more than the pre-set # of sphinns before they go Hot."
I believe this would be difficult, who's going to outline what is a "certain type"? Are humerous posts "a certain type"? Top ten lists? Some people find value and relief in those and more.
Going back to what Rob said initially:
>"I've been keen on the idea of adding a page that only features breaking news, innovations and original discussions."
I like "breaking news" and "innovation" and would totally support/vote yes/read editor picks for this. Original discussions might be hard as there's mostly reguritation of topics if they're not new or innovative. It will be interesting to see how many future "greatest hits" posts are those with editors stamps on them.
Love the idea! I'm so tired of the self-promotional crap, I was about to give up on Sphinn. I'm all for replacing the home page and making it a totalitarian regime. Screw democracy, Kid Nation runs better than Sphinn.
By the way, this is in no part due to the moderators and creators... I love ya EGM, Danny, mods, etc., my comments go out to the obnoxious crap that's not only wasting my time, but leaving a vacant hole where healthy brain cells used to thrive.
I think a system similar to propeller could work quite well.
The featured story then serves one of two purpose, highlight breaking news that might not yet have enough votes or keep something important from slipping down the hot topic page too quickly.
I don't know the limitations of Pligg but I think something along the lines of stumbles system where a vote for someone you always vote for counts for less...
While we're at it, would it be possible to weed out all of the reposts?
I've seen a lot more of these this week.
With all the repetitive articles...written in a different way, this is a great idea to cut through all the clutter to provide the most authoritative submission the most visibility.
This is an interesting discussion. It's veered off-topic here and there into "wish list" type stuff, but as a moderator, I appreciate everyone's passion for the site and wanting it to be better.
Some comments that maybe I should be saying internally to Rob and the other mods, but what the heck....
1) If this takes effect, I'd be very concerned about the appearance and possible calls of favoritism from the user base. For the most part, we all know who each other's close friends are, and I think the situaton Tim Dineen described above (http://sphinn.com/story/11926#c15468) is something to think about strongly.
2) I believe a "Bury" button or something similar is coming soon, along with other structural features. I'd rather see the impact of those before we start having staff try to handpick the cream of the crop.
3) As the site grows, we all have to work a little harder to find the good content. It may not be enough anymore to hit the home page, the What's New page, the "Most Popular - What's New" page, and the Comments page. You might have to start hitting individual categories that interest you to read and Sphinn good material. (Just like you hit the categorical "Upcoming" pages on Digg, right?) This is a natural result of growth - it's unavoidable.
So that's my two cents. If the user base is 100% behind this, I'll do my part as a mod. But I think it might be premature considering some of the new features in the pipeline.
I'm always wary of putting so much faith in the hands of the few ... it WILL BE abused even if the mods have the best of intentions. That said, I agree that change it needed. So, here's what I propose (high level right now):
Give each member a limited number of votes to cast each month (eg. 50) ... then once an individual casts his/her 50 votes for the month, she's got to wait for the next month before being permitted to cast again. She'll then have the incentive to spend her votes in the wisest possible manner.
Just blue skying! It will need to be flushed out a little more.
You give a bank robber a gun, hmmmm. Well whaddya think they are going to do with it?
The space is all about promotion and self promotion so it should not come as a surprise that it is used for selfish promotion. The problem is some of us are better at it than others.
When self promotion is done badly it grates, like a cheese grater over sunburnt skin.
When it's done well it's like a smooth, aged Bordeaux dancing on the tongue.
You want the lunatics running the asylum this is what you get, but it wont be a simple act to change things.
NOISE is inevitable in a social setting, but too many of the items on Sphin are repetitive, "just for fun", amatuer SEO stuff, making money with blogs - and almost no real substance marketing getting attention.
The signal to noise ratio is getting thinner and thinner...
I'm with you Rhea and Brian - I think it might be what saves the site for more serious readers. Those of us super-deep in search marketing will continue to read no matter how inecestual and controversial and Diggbaity the site gets, but for the longer tail of readers, an editor's list of the top 2-5 posts per day would be truly excellent.
but for the longer tail of readers, an editor's list of the top 2-5 posts per day would be truly excellent.
But then why not just go to SEL? I'm still confused as to why that should be here.
Thank you for everyone's input on this discussion, I appreciate your opinions both good and bad.
Just to address a few of the ponts raised:
Sphinn will never become a SEL2, the sites have two different objectives. Danny and the writers at SEL put a lot of time, research and thought into each story rolled out at SEL. Although the idea being discussed will result in a pre-filtered list of news stories on Sphinn, these stories are usually "bleeding edge". Many of the industry news websites rely on places like Sphinn to find the breaking stories for them to analyse. When SEL or the competitors write about a discussion, test or opinion - it usually originates from a forum or community site. I doubt Danny, Barry and the other SEL writers sit at home all day testing XSS exploits, or continually hitting refresh on a selection of search result pages. They monitor the newswires and communities instead, so we effectively feed the SEL giant. We visit Sphinn to discuss, not to simply read.
In terms of impartiality, this is something which should go hand in hand with being a moderator. If you check my public Digg profile, you'll see that I only ever Digg my friends like Barry, Tamar, Tony and Frank. If I was a Digg Editor, I'd no way make most of their submissions front page (no offence guys). Not only is there a big difference between Sphinning a story and potentially "Picking" it, there's also a clear line between Editor/Moderator and Friend. In terms of subjects as well, there's no part of SEM that I do not find interesting - no matter what colour hat you may wear or medium you prefer. Friend or foe, black or white, natural or paid, if it's interesting - it's in.
I tend to agree with both Rand & Jill.
I was hoping that Sphinn would become the 1 place I could go to get everything I needed to know in the industry. Instead I find myself visiting less & less. SEL, MP, the Moz & the usual suspects provide me with a much more pleasurable way of getting the news I'm afraid. Sphinn is just becoming way too inward looking to be of any real interest to me (just a personal opinion though, for those not working in agencies etc.. I could see how it would still be all good).
Whilst an editor's page would probably address this issue for me, it does then raise the issue of what the site is for. I tend to think that Sphinn (& digg & the like) can be neatly summed up with this quote from Henry Louis Mencken:
“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.”
I like the idea.
It's a great idea.
I have to agree with Jill, I don't think it's worth doing.
I want http://sphinn.com/story/11513
I'm on vacation this week (back to work next week, so I'll be more active in commenting then), but I'll add a few comments.
First, SEL isn't going away and will continue to be editorially-driven. I've always viewed Sphinn as complementary to SEL in that over there, everything is an editorial pick. So what if the editors miss something of interest? That's where I've felt Sphinn is a great way for readers and a community to shape results. So far, despite its problems, I think it has done a great job of that. In addition, Sphinn covers more than search -- it covers all of online marketing -- so SEL won't have some of the same topics.
Second, we do have plans for a bury-style feature, where the community can remove votes from stories they dislike. We think that might go live later this month, but we also wanted to have a discussion on it first. But any early thoughts are welcomed. This feature would be separate from a spam reporting tool, and buries we feel would be visible to help avoid accusations of a bury brigade.
Personally, I think the idea of one or two Sphinns that sit at the top of the Sphinn home page might be worth testing. Another thing that may help is when we bring in filtering tools, where you could filter to see only what your friends Sphinn or what mods are picking. Or maybe Sphinning happens as normal, but an editor voting for a story might give it an editors pick icon.
I guess it is trully a matter of opionion and who's opinion do you like the most. There are several Sphinners that I trust and when I want to take a quick look at which stories should be checked out for the day I go to their profile and see what they sphunn or commented on. None of them are moderators as far as I know, but could be. I guess with this editor pick thing you are saying that the moderators opinion is better than the masses, which may or not be true. Ironically, I find the Hot Topics tab the least accurate place to find what is worth reading, perhaps that is the inspiration for this idea.
If it's implemented I'd like to see the moderators try to pick stories to highlight that didn't go hot for whatever reason, title sucks, no-name avatar submitted it, etc. If they were to find the real diamonds that quickly get buried then it would server a good purpose. Just picking through the hot list wouldn't do much for me, as those stories aready get enough attention due to being on one page for a couple of days. Other stories to highlight would be ones that actually do spark discussion with a lot of comments, those are what I find most interesting.
Now if we could just do something about the duplicates that would be great, but I guess that's what voting is for, the 23rd blog post about Google adding a new webmaster tool doesn't get many sphinns.
Rather than Editor's Picks, why not just have a featured Sphinner every week or month (easy enough to grab out of hot sphinners) and simply put a little speal about them as well as show the stuff they've sphunn.
I'm a hot sphinner! Oh wait, you meant "hot topics" or articles, nevermind.
=P
I agree with John, I see a lot of great stories slip by simply because not enough votes were made. And then I see crap getting to the front page because the submitter is adept at networking.
Spending most of my waking hours knee deep in social bookmarking sites I see this issue as a constant problem and tricky to get the balance right.
Like a Roman Emperor you need to have the mob on your side.
Although I am now well connected and have a lot of cool people on IM, I still believe I belong to the mob and it irks me a little when people moan about people gaming the system for their own benefit. That's what happens on social bookmarking sites and there are a number of people here who game social bookmarking sites for a living. Myself included. We know the tricks, we know how the system works.
It's what we do.
Yes you will get noise, yes you will crap submitted, I started a discussion here http://sphinn.com/story/10062 it's a shame more of you didn't comment then, it would have been useful to have had more mods or even the editor make a comment, thanks for those that did.
What a site like this needs is leadership from those who have influence and are looked up to in the industry. It's easy to have a moan and critisise the odd post that gets submitted, but show by example rather than grumble.
Don't like the submissions, submit more,
Don't like what is getting sphunn, make sure you sphinn more good stuff.
Make a few more comments supporting those that are new and deserver it.
Take a pop at those who are out of order, make sure they are aware of your displeasure.
And when someone posts a "Where is the Beef" discussion, make sure you are involved.
Don't like the submissions, submit more,
Don't like what is getting sphunn, make sure you sphinn more good stuff.
Make a few more comments supporting those that are new and deserver it.
Yes! This is what we need more people to do.
I also agree with the poster who said they don't find much use of the What's Hot stories. Personally, I like to go through the What's New stories myself. It's tedious, and I admit I go by Title and what sounds interesting, but that's where you find the gems.
Don't be afraid to check out the stories with just 1 Sphinn. I've found tons of great stuff through Sphinn I never would have found pre-Sphinn and to me, that's the greatness of this place.
"I agree with John, I see a lot of great stories slip by simply because not enough votes were made. And then I see crap getting to the front page because the submitter is adept at networking."
Amen to that! It's really frustrating to spend time on what you think is a great post, only to have somebody else's story on the same topic get Sphunn by all their friends and out-rank yours, despite you posting yours first. Not all of us like to network for votes.