Calendar
Network
Feeds
- 20
- Sphinn It!
Does Sphinn's Community Need to Learn the Basics?
Went Hot: August 10, 2007 - 4:43 am
Posted By: qwerty 393 days ago
Topic Type: Discussion
Category: Sphinn Zone
I don't want to seem like a search snob here, and I don't have a problem with reading articles by people I don't know. I'm sure lots of people here don't know who I am. I just wonder if a site designed as a community for professionals has a place for information for beginners, and I tend to think that most of the people I've never heard of are beginners trying to get their names out there.
As the guidelines say, "News submissions should lead to substantial or interesting material" and I'm sure a blog post on how Google was founded by these two guys at Stanford is substantial and interesting to lots of people, but I think that most of the community for which the site was designed just has no use for that kind of thing.
Of course, if I've misunderstood what Danny had in mind I apologize. It's about 4 am here, so if I'm coming off as an ass let's blame it on that. And I get that basic articles are likely to get sphunn less than others, thereby allowing the cream to rise to the top, but I subscribe to the "what's new" feed -- I don't want to miss something good that might get overlooked by the community. That sometimes puts me in the position of an MD opening up a copy of JAMA or the Lancet and seeing "Your Skeleton and You -- Friends for Life" in the table of contents.
27 Comments
Comments
I've noticed this too... but I've also noticed that many of these posts tend to do quite well in Sphinn. In these early days people seem to still care more about ways to work out if redirects are working, how to check for supplemental results and top blogging tips than IPOs, new initiatives from the search engines or truly new techniques.
I suspect this may because it is easier to click "sphinn" on a topic you recognize as suitable rather than go check out something new and make a judgment call on it ahead of the crowd.
I suspect one of the missions is to educate others, and what better way is to this, than to have good articles on basic things?
Becides, there are numerous aspects on doing things, and some can write great articles about basic stuff, too.
Likewise, I don't think you'll get less basic stuff, if you only subscribe to the hot stuff, too. The long tail posts in the Upcoming section should be pretty good, too.
If one of the goals of this website is to become a resource for new and old players in the search world, you kind of need some of the beginner type posts to rank. I hope they stay at a minimum though. We certainly don't need tons of entry level how-to articles. Although I do appreciate a new, original viewpoint on an old subject.
You know I think the "how to" stuff used to be widely available on forum posts and "big" blogs. But it seems like that kind of stuff has dried up in place of "News" and commentary.
If it's worthwhile stuff and not the same old, same old I'm for seeing it.
Yes, I was going to joke about not wanting to see another article submitted called
15 Ways Matt Cutts Talked At WordCamp About Optimizing Your WordPress Blog With 21 Firefox Plugins You Must Have When Using 3 Copywriting Tips
I think by and large, the sphinning is working. People are putting up stuff that isn't that wonderful, and it's generally not rising. But you do get the occasional basic tips that I think -- cool -- well written, went beyond the standard three paragraph pitch and may help some new people who are always coming in.
I'd say if you see stuff that you think is too basic -- stuff that's already covered over and over -- you might comment about that and what you might have liked to have seen. That might help people improve more in the future.
There different people at different level here. If someone do not like newbie article don't read and don't Sphinn it. This site content is user driven content... Want more pro ? Submit more pro...
"I tend to think that most of the people I've never heard of are beginners trying to get their names out there"
So what do you suggest these people do then? Yes some posts are basic but everyone has to start somewhere and I'm always up for giving those who try a break.
Sometimes the SEO industry does seem a little exclusive - which tends to put me off it, though its no different to any other club or group of people I guess...
I've been around a while in the SEM industry quietly doing my own thing for 5 years plus, rather than getting my name out there and being "seen". Just because I am not an SEO Cause Celeb doesn't make me an SEO nobody...
Hey... why stop there... why not just create an entrance exam that folks have to pass before they can register for the site?
I don't understand why people gripe about others that aren't as well entrenched or knowledgeable in an industry as they are. Guess what? When the "new blood" stops pouring into an industry, that industry stops growing and eventually dies.
Isn't one of the main purposes of a community like Sphinn to serve as a place for folks to learn from one another? If there are no "newbies" around here to learn from the more seasoned pros, what are the vets doing here... passing around the same stories and knowledge that they already know?
Maybe instead of taking the time to make new people feel unwelcome, that time and energy could be better directed into helping the community solidify: Get to know some of the new people... leave a comment on one of their Sphinn posts with some additional information that they might not know... etc. You never know who the next news-maker is going to be.
I'm not directing any of this at anyone in particular, btw. I've seen it a million times on a million forums and niche sites (the worst was an Apple forum I joined a few years ago when I bought my first Mac... now THAT was an unfriendly group... haha). It's not a Sphinn-specific issue.
I just hate to see that mentality crop up here, too.
Disclosure: I'm one of the new people to the community... and I'm sure everyone else here was too at some point ;)
The issue is one of community - Danny's done a great job in setting up Sphinn, but essentially it gives everyone and anyone a chance to position themselves in the industry.
At Threadwatch, people were peers to some degree - here, it covers a wider spectrum, and because self-promotion is a requisite of submission, it feeds egos. Hence lots of inexperienced people trying to sound themselves as authorities.
To be honest on the point of basics - the experienced SEO's are not going to post anything ground-breaking here, or probably anywhere. The very real tricks and tips of the trade provide commercial advantage, and few people are going to give those out on a public forum. In good company at a bar is another matter...
2c.
I think a little bit of focus on the basics is a good thing even if you are a forum celebrity. If all you focus on is the cutting edge theoretical I-think-this-works type stuff it's kinda like being a really good pilot that can't land a plane. Because while landing isn't exciting it is really important.
"15 Ways Matt Cutts Talked At WordCamp About Optimizing Your WordPress Blog With 21 Firefox Plugins You Must Have When Using 3 Copywriting Tips"
Crap. Guess I better re-write next week's "Small is Beautiful" column. :-)
To the topic, I would just say that what is basic to one person may not be basic to the next. When I see something that doesn't appeal, I just skip it and tell myself someone else will have to appreciate it.
I have to agree with ukdaz and Derick. I thought Sphinn was supposed to be a way for anyone involved in SEM to submit articles they think are interesting and useful - not to be another popularity contest and "searcharazzi" forum.
I don't mind the basic articles. Often they serve as good reminders of what we all should be doing, but sometimes forget. The ones I skip are "Is Matt Cutts really a lolcat?" or "Rand Fishkin really screwed up by recommending XYZ directory" or "Gee, don't we all love Danny Sullivan?" No offense intended to any of these guys -- my point is, I personally don't care or have time for things like lolcats and who saw who at the bar at SES. What I do have time for is SEM articles that'll help me do my job better. Whether they're written by an A-list blogger or another unknown like me doesn't matter - if it's good, useful content *for me,* I'll Sphinn it. If not, I skip it and move on.
I think there is something for everyone at Sphinn and that's what makes it interesting. Turning it into a "who's who of search" and discouraging "unknowns" from posting will make it much less appealing, IMHO.
Melissa
As a newbie to search marketing (I've been doing it for less than a year), I have to say that the basics articles have been a great resource for me. Because I spend most of my time managing pay per click campaigns, I feel like a have a lot of knowledge concerning paid search but that I have some gaps to fill in when it comes to other types of SEM. I'm sure there are other people in the same position. I think that the great part about Sphinn is the ability it provides to sort through a lot of content and find the information that appeals to your unique search marketing interests and needs.
OK, I guess the consensus is that I misunderstood the purpose of the site. IMHO, it's more important for someone who's new to the business to learn than to publish, and there are many sites out there that serve that purpose. At the HR forum, for example, we're very welcoming toward people who want to learn.
I was under the impression that Sphinn was created to be a place where people who are actually active in the field could gather to share news, rumors and questions. If that's not the case, so be it.
Can't it be both?
Yes, of course it can. I just didn't think that it was.
Maybe the answer is to have a self-rating system.
For example, when someone posts to Sphinn, they can determine if the story is for "newbies" or more seasoned folks. I think everyone has a sense for whether their posts would fit into the first or second category.
Then a new feed could be created for each type. That way, no one is excluded but there's a filtering mechanism so people don't have to wade through what they don't want to read.
My 2 cents.
"IMHO, it's more important for someone who's new to the business to learn than to publish"
Writing an article about SEO basics doesn't mean the author is a newbie themselves.
Also, and I wrote about this on a post at my blog, it's quite apparent when a newbie writes a blog post about basic concepts s/he doesn't understand all the way. When someone who knows their stuff writes a beginning tutorial on a topic, it's clear in their writing that they know and have experience in the field.
Based on the questions, forum posts, blog comments out there, it's apparent that newbies often need clarification on basics. I think a well-written tutorial on a basic concept that is step-by-step and comprehensive absolutely has a place here.
Mel66 wrote, "I don't mind the basic articles. Often they serve as good reminders of what we all should be doing, but sometimes forget."
I think that's a good point. I am often reminded of basics that I've neglected to implement on one of my sites.
AmyGreer's suggestion of a self-rating system is an interesting one as well, although I'd hate to see a suberb tutorial overlooked because it was rated as for beginners. I know I probably wouldn't take the time to visit a "Beginner" section, but in doing so I could miss some good stuff that I could pass on to my own readers, some of whom are very new to the field.
All in all, the Sphinn and this system is what the users make of it. If a beginning article rises to the top, it deserves a place there.
As you know, we have a bunch of categories here. However, I could easily make a "101" or "First Steps" category for stuff specifically meant for beginners. Over time, the Greatest Hits section of that might build up a nice list of highly rated tutorials, while the other categories of Sphinn would be beyond the basics.
I don't really think you can have it both ways (or that you should even try to): There's more than enough established forums etc. out there covering newbie stuff. They're important, they're constructive and generally they're doing a pretty good job.
On the other hand I never subscribed to the view that this here was intended or, for that matter, capable to become "the new Threadwatch", even though coincidences (?) of timing may obviously have conveyed that impression.
Still, if all the newbie stuff and ego tickling should prevail (and I agree that there's simply too much of that around currently), I guess I'll opt to spend my tightly limited time elsewhere.
I'd like to see the "Beginner" as a checkbox one could choose (or not) so that when submitting, you can select the appropriate category (SEO, PPC, SMO etc.) and then "Check" that it's a "101" type article.
This way the articles would still live in their proper category, but could be classified/found by their level of expertise as well.
Oh, and perhaps a little "101" icon (or something to represent it's a beginning-type article) that appears near the listing in Sphinn's results (before clicking through to the comments/more info page).
Does that make ANY sense? LOL.
if the smart people would spin the good stuff then we new people could just follow the peopel we think are smart.
I know pligg (the digg-clone software that powers sphinn) isn't set up to do this, but this is an example where an alternative voting system would be good. Rather than just clicking to vote, a simple matrix voting would work.
Great/Good/Bad/Terrible
Beginner/Intermediate/Advanced/Rand
etc.
Or just tagging. And more categories!
Michelle - it makes total sense. I'd hate to see articles lose their categorical relevance (SEO, PPC, SMO, etc) for the sake of an additional level of clarification (e.g. "101", "Basics").
But if what x32v4c says is true about the ability of the software to do this, it doesn't sound hopeful...
Maybe a self-regulating system of encouraging the addition of a phrase like "FOR BEGINNERS" or "101 AUDIENCE" to the beginning of the descriptions would work.
This may seem somewhat naive, but shouldn't it be the case of any 2.0 site, that the masses should decide what a site's should be? If beginner articles are too basic for the target audience then they'll swim, otherwise they'll sink as quickly as they were submitted.
I think the ability to label each submit for a particular audience (both basic and advanced) makes most sense as it will enable people to quickly scan the articles they want to read.
Eventually a status quo will take over and then we'll find out what level the primary audience of Sphinn is. It's early days yet so it's understandable that we still don't know.
The great thing I like about sites like this is that we have no idea what it will be like in the future as the lunatics are in control (you and me) and that is what gives sites like this an edge, a vibrancy.
Although the space we are in is a narrow niche it has many flavours and various currents, some fast, some slow. Personally I love it that all the newbie stuff and the ego stroking that is going on, because it means someone is taking the time to submit a story and they can't all be great.
After a story is submitted, the lunatics decide what goes to the front page. And if we don't like it, then we have to eat it. One of my posts has made it to the front page and someone questioned if it should be there, which is fine, it's an interesting debate.
But I didn't put it there. The people who voted did. And that's the trade off when being involved in a site like this, some stuff is not going to please everyone.
Not that anyone particularly cares...
2 moths ago, before I started learning about SEO and forums, and SMO and all, I didn't have a passion for anything. As I began to watch people with their passion for SEO, naturally I assumed that their opinions were due to having the direction I did not have. (Maybe because I wanted the same meaningful connection of purpose and validation.)
Although my private emotional life is of no bearing here, it may shed some light as to what some of us may want to accomplish by posting at Sphinn. Unlike the experts here, all we may have is knowing what we know, which may not be what you know. No brainer, huh?
Maybe we have found a meaningful endeavor and want to share it with those who may or may not already know how that feels for themselves.
Maybe we want contribute to the posts from a Newbie standpoint, because we know how unwelcoming some are to us, and want to make another Newbie feel more included, because it is an icky experience when the people that you admire make you feel that you are beneath them.
Maybe, we've queried seo phrases in our little free-trial Keyword Dicovery or Wordtracker tool and have seen proof of there being plenty of newbies that know even less than we do.
Maybe we just hope like hell that we don't ever forget where we came from as we learn what the experts have already learned and have dismissed as unimportant.
Maybe we know that there are so many experts talking on an expert level that there's a niche for focussing on the Newbie....to teach and to nurture, not impale or use as an experts whipping post.. I have a difficult time respecting those that step on anothers head for profit or gain.
Maybe profit or gain can be experienced by way of integrity and selflessness without having to resort to the watering hole of the masses that may be playing you for your vote anyway. Or is it that those votes are so important that integrity becomes a side-order on the perk menu?
Newbie here, and proud of it.....I have been an underdog before, no biggy.