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Went Hot: January 26, 2008 - 4:14 pm
Posted By: tnash 260 days ago
Topic Type: News Story (Jump to http://andybeard.eu)
Category: Sphinn Zone
42 Comments
Went Hot: January 26, 2008 - 4:14 pm
Posted By: tnash 260 days ago
Topic Type: News Story (Jump to http://andybeard.eu)
Category: Sphinn Zone
42 Comments
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Comments
It's the weekend, and I don't have time to read through all this now. I was aware this page was pulled, and I wasn't aware that Andy either raised the issue with the mods (we're not hard to find) to appeal it (we're actually open minded, especially for a member who has contributed as much as Andy), nor that he raised any concern here on Sphinn first before apparently declaring he's got to bail or whatever (like I said, I've only skimmed).
I'll look further at it Monday. As always, if there are issues raised with how the community runs, I, Rob and the moderation staff are open to changes and feedback. I think we've consistently shown that.
So I went back and made time to do the deep read. I'll dive in.
"You won't be able to read this comment online, the story is still hidden in moderation, but the tone makes me livid."
I've pushed the story out now so that anyone can see it directly to discuss Andy's concerns and see the entire comment. The comments haven't been changed. The only thing new are the two at the end where I noted that I've now made the story live and what the original headline was ("Andy Beard is Available for Hire: Exclusive Content For Membership Sites and Agencies").
The entire comment Andy talks about not being able to see was:
"I've changed the topic title to make it less of an advert, although the linked page itself is a concern to me. This is like Aaron linking to his pre-sell page for SEO Book, or any other SEO trying to make their consultancy page go Hot. I think it only went Hot as DoshDosh submitted it.
Currently under consideration by the Sphinn Team."
I'll address Andy here, as comments are closed on his own post. Hope you're still reading, Andy.
Andy's livid over the tone. Andy, sorry, but I think you're taking it personally. I do not read this as a slam against you, the quality of posts you do or any suggestion that you did anything wrong. You didn't even submit the story. None of us even think you got Maki to submit it. You are, and should feel, without any taint or hint of wrong-doing. It's not even a suggestion that Maki did something wrong. It was a judgement call on the content itself -- was it news that should be on Sphinn?
In particular, does the community want a steady stream of posts about things that are to come, or should we just wait until they actually arrive? I'm sure you've and others have seen this type of thing happen. Sometimes, exactly as you say with Jim, they've gone anyway. In fact, that's usually been the case. But then when lesser known "names" have "they're about to do this thing" posts come up, we sometimes get complaints that Sphinn is being overrun with that content and where the hell are the mods :)
I didn't chime in on this review, that the mods raised. I'm not constantly on Sphinn. Looking at it now, I'd probably would have said nah, this is fine to stay on Sphinn. You're pretty well known these days, you're posting to get some ideas from your readers, and some of those might want to talk about it here on Sphinn. Me, it wouldn't have been an issue.
Rob saw it differently, and I'll back him on that as the site editor.
In terms of Maki submitting, he felt that helped content that upon review, he didn't think had news value, go hot because of Maki's rep. No, he didn't say everything Maki submits go hot. But it can help.
In terms of bias in moderation, please. OK, there's bias in everything. But I see what gets pulled. You know what it is? 97% drive by off topic spam. 2% good content but off topic. 1% judgement calls.
In the end, you feel shafted and warn others will, as well. It's hard to shaft someone on a site where they're going to come back and complain if they feel that way, and if they have been, the community will back them.
In this case, as I said above, you didn't start a discussion thread. You didn't email Rob. You didn't email me or use any of the contact forms to hit the mod staff, that I can see. In contrast, Rob proactively contacted Maki, and I don't see in my records that Maki sent any pushback on it (I might have missed this, if it was sent to Rob directly. My assumption is Maki probably though "oh well" and moved on).
Instead, you're ticked and upset and have to make a condemnation of the entire site because one of your articles got pulled after so very many have done well here, been well received here, been so commented on? Instead, you do a post to declare -- without bothering to apparently get any further thoughts from the Sphinn staff or the community here on the issue -- that you're done, don't bother IMing me, don't bother emailing me on it and don't bother commenting on the post.
I hope you'll stay, and I again stress that we were not attaching any wrong-doing to you or Maki but rather making one of the rare judgement calls we have to make.
You can do whatever you want to do. As I said, I'd have probably spoken up for this post staying if it hadn't come along during a busy day. And if you'd raised it with me or the mods privately, we'd have probably taken another look and asked ourselves if it should stay. And if we'd have still thought it should go, we might even have started a thread on the topic of these types of stories (as you have seen us do many times before).
Just to add my side of the story. I did email admin@sphinn.com after I noticed the story was pulled and I couldn't read the comments. I wanted to know why this story was removed. Rob emailed me back using his own private email and we had a short email discussion.
Here's what I wrote in the email:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To be honest, I didn't agree that it should have been removed.
I know the discussion here isn't really about Andy's merits as a person/user but I feel this should have been a factor when deciding whether a story like his stays or goes.
In hindsight, I should have contacted Andy via email after the post was removed to talk about this but I didn't have the time and so left it alone after emailing with Rob. I had no idea Andy was going to write a post like this. Was a little shocked because I didn't see it coming.
I do appreciate Danny opening up the post and sharing his opinion on it. I think discussion about this is useful.
Thanks, Maki, for sharing the other info. Like I said, wasn't sure if there had been more that went on.
Andy specifically requested that no one submit this post to social sites, btw.
I for one am respecting that. I would hope others would do the same.
'Judgement calls' can and do go wrong from time to time.
Communication between involved parties often resolves issues like this one quickly and effectively.
In this case, that process failed - and led to some hasty reactions.
Considering how helpful Andy has been to the community in the past, it is my opinion that a simple apology for what was essentially a process failure (non-communication between people involved) and a 'moderator judgement call' that created the 'crisis' in the first place will suffice to defuse this situation.
That said, whenever a moderated community enforces rules too rigidly and without weighting in the value a particular member contributes to the group, there is prone to be an attrition - usually of the more supportive and active members.
When one gives of his/her most precious commodity - TIME - to grow, nurture and support a community, and then s/he FEELS being treated unfairly due to the uniform application of rules - that were originally meant to avoid abuse by a completely DIFFERENT kind of (ab)user - there's a sticky problem.
You could take one view and say the community is bigger than the individual - and in that case the valuable member walks.
You could put individuals first, based on their value to the community, and woo them back - without compromising the integrity of the system itself.
There's no 'right' or 'wrong' way to do it. Just the sensible, practical and realistic way.
Danny and Co. - I'm sure you'll do the thing that is best for Sphinn.
As for me, speaking personally, I know exactly how Andy feels and empathize with him - because I went through a few similar demeaning experiences at a popular forum before deciding enough was enough and saying 'Goodbye'.
Just my 2 cents worth.
All success
Dr.Mani
"Andy specifically requested that no one submit this post to social sites, btw."
Part of me thinks, tough. He's made a public statement. About Sphinn. And we can't talk about it? Seriously? Hey, next time I write something that I think might be controversial, do I get to say "by the way, don't submit or discuss this 'cause it's just between me and my readers."
Would it be better if it had been a discussion thread, and we had a URL in it that pointed at his post. Or if we talked about the issues he's raising about the community here without anyone actually getting to understand exactly what he said?
Part of me similarly wonders if we need to have a mechanism where if a site owner can say they want their pages to be voluntarily banned from Sphinn, too -- because I can respect people not wanting to be directly linked. But pretty much, no -- I don't think you get to attack something and then self-declare that those outside your readership don't get to discuss it (especially when some of Andy's readers are also people on Sphinn, too).
But if you want to respect it, cool. Just stop commenting about it. I just had to respond to you in another thread, so you know, you respecting not talking about it or not?
@InfopreneurBlog, I'm happy to apologize (and do so) if Andy felt, or if anyone felt, that he somehow did something wrong because we pulled the story. It was never meant that way, as I explained above. In terms of a failure to communicate -- I don't think Andy had any communication with us at all. The story was pulled, the person who submitted it was communicated with, and Andy went off and did a post without perhaps getting any information at all from us. A post which doesn't allow comments -- so much for communication.
It could easily be discussed without linking to his post at all, actually. The part that offended him all resides right here on Sphinn. In fact, the offending comments are in the other thread, where I certainly feel it is more appropriate to reply... but if you honestly feel the need to redirect the attention off of your mistakes by implying that I am wrong for feeling the way I do, or that I am adhering to some double standard by discussing in a submission other that the one Andy ask not be submitted, I understand. Hell, if my position were that weak I'd probably start looking for distraction methods myself.
But I'll be more than happy to drop it if you will. Stop justifying and I'll quit criticising your justifications.
Peace.
Mike, the comment he was upset about, you had to go looking very specifically to find it, as he himself explained.
The bigger issue from my reading of his post wasn't the comment but whether the story should have been yanked. After all, Andy raised a concern that others might get "shafted" in the way he felt he was. I only wish he'd have raised that here directly, either first with the mods but if not, through a public discussion.
I'm not redirect the conversation either way. You can easily quote the comment here if you need to. It's just a pain to have to respond in two separate threads that are covering the same core issue, and it's hard for those who are concerned. But if you need to turn a logical and simple suggestion like that into an accusation I'm trying to turn the attention away from anything, back at you -- you're looking weak and seeking a distraction.
But hey, take your last shot at me if you feel you need to make a further dig on whatever. I feel like I've covered the issues at length above already.
I think it should all come down to if the article adds something real as far as content.
We get Marketing Ninjas, every SINGLE seo/sem/marketing conference that shows up(normally chocked full of affiliate links to the sign ups) and various blog contests as well. And no one objects to these. They never get blocked.
I love sphinn, and don't plan on leaving it for a long time, but it's still getting a bit trickier than normal lately.
I personally will miss Andy's posts.
I will miss Andy's contributions.
Danny, at heart I think you're a decent guy.
There, that's my last shot.
Damn you, Mike, and your attacks! :)
I feel that Andy should reconsider his decision to leave Sphinn.
I feel that Andy will still be here, jsut with another personality ( or 4) . Let's all be real shall we?
Andy is too well liked and anyone who is jsut doesn't leave. I can assure you he will not only visit Sphinn but also will comment here and there, but with jsut another name. I'm not faulting that, it seems to be the norm on the net after all.
Things are never as they look. Especially on the net.
I believe that he's a proud man, as displayed by his post, and he'll probably not be back which will be a sad loss for Sphinn.
Personally I both agree and disagree with his stance. I understand his frustrations over the post in question - for what's it worth I think Rob was a little heavy handed on this but I also understand the reasons why he took the route he did - but I also think that Andy himself has been a little bit OTT with his response. His justifications within the post for leaving Sphinn are absolutely valid - I'll stand by him on this one - but I would have rather he'd dealt with it in a different way.
Ultimately I think it's sad that an active contributor to Sphinn has decided to move on but the show will go on...
This discussion made me read the submission guidelines a little more closely and I wasn't able to find anything regarding promotional material. And I've seen posts before written by high profile sphinn members, though submitted by someone else, with affiliate links. And those posts weren't pulled. So, I don't think this one should've been pulled.
Sometimes spam is like pornography, you know it when you see it. If I put up a post offering paid content it's spam... but for Andy, because of his credibility, it might be considered news.
Anyway, it was on topic and didn't (as far as I can tell) violate any guidelines.
Perhaps some good can come of this with some clarification in the guidelines.
So now we know what this week's controvery in the SEO/SEM world is! (I bet Rand is happy it doesn't have anything to do with him ;)
@Jill: Too funny :)))
@ mvandemar
- I know Andy specifically asked it not to be submitted but I was tired and managed to ignore the bold bits ;) I then went and IM him about it ignoring the second bit ;)
Life is like that I consider Andy a friend and would not wish him to be upset but perhaps in many respects it was better me then some one who perhaps would have attached there own Sphinn.
If there was a desphinn button I would have desphinned my sphinn but thats life.
I'm having a hard time tracking the specifics of the issues embodied in the above metioned matter.
That said, I DO know that I've personally learned a LOT from Andy Beard and am grateful for all he's bookmarked and commented on here. When he makes a recomendation or complaint, it's deep and measured...an honorable person.
I also have had my little run ins with Sphinn moderation. Such things are unavoidable for truly passionate community contributers and site owners. People like us are EMOTIONAL about participation and moderation. Everyone cares. Everyone is a stakeholder in their own way.
The mods always seem thoughtful and try-even when it gets emotional. I've recieved personal emails from multiple mods explaining things which demonstrated thoughtfulness and care, even when I thought they were wrong :). Both Danny and Rob have sent respectful and detailed emails explaining decisions. The guiding hand seems measured, even, and authentic.
Well I'll miss Andy. I remember finding about his site here and hopefully in time he'll return. It's funny though, I'd like to respect his wishes, but this is a good story. To Sphinn or not to Sphinn?
Maybe the Beardman will come back eventually.
This is outrageous. Do you all know who HE IS??!!!??!?
Out of all the normal back and forth we see here a lot, this is the comment that caught my eye.
What....what the hell happened here?!?! That's not Mike!! Someone hacked his account!!
I'm still shaking in fear that my maker is coming for me.
@ seofactor ... "... I'm still shaking in fear that my maker is coming for me."
My god man ... give me a warning before throwing a line like that out there. I need to prepare in advance and get cushions set up around my chair for fear I fall out of it again.
Priceless!
Well, have no fear. I have about one good line per year. You're all safe til 2009...but watch out then.
Danny, from what I know about you (which isn't as much as I should, and want to), I'm sure your apology is sincere and well-meant.
Having read through the posts made in connection with this issue, I see some bad blood has been spilt on both sides, and that's a shame. Makes it a bit harder to 'kiss and make up' than if all this hadn't become so public.
In the end, we all make decisions best for ourselves and the things we care most about. And no matter what form those decisions take, it does not reflect badly on the people themselves - they are just being human, doing things they care about, making a few mistakes, fixing them as best possible, and moving on.
What I myself have gained from observation of similar experiences, and from my own, is embodied in a message I shared on my blog many months ago... titled:
How To Make a GIANT Pay You.
It's here
http://moneypowerwisdom.com/how-to-make-a-giant-pay-you/
- and can be summarized briefly as: "If you want to consistently benefit from a BIG service, play by THEIR rules."
All success
Dr.Mani
P.S. - In the end, the only way to guarantee a post won't get pulled or deleted by anyone else (or even commented upon ;) ) is to host it on your own blog!
@seofactor: Frankly, I think that normal blah blah blah...
I'll miss Andy here.
I think it was a bad move to remove the article, but I also think it is unfortunate (but understandable) for Andy to give up on sphinn, because of it.
As the proud author of some of the more unpopular viewpoints on Sphinn, I was given a place to put my view points, even though they clearly would go against the grain of popular users.
That makes me think that sphinn is very legit.
However, by removing an article, you remove the capacity to be "a place for discussion".
Danny put everything back up, kudos.
Andy said something.
It was removed.
So much for a place for discussion, Andy has every right to me mad/hurt/whatever.
Maki offered a geat solution, remove voting from such things.
I offer another...
Make crystal clear what type of content will be removed, and be consistant in enforcing it.
As in any community, a member will feel hurt by things like this, the best way to minimize this is to have a consistant method.
A great example is SEOmoz, my community of choice. I have had (a few times) content I wrote removed. But I have never once felt hurt about it, because I agree with the removals. They made sense to me so there was no hurt.
In Andy's case however. It didn't make sense. Hence the hurt (or whatever).
It is very easy seen as...
You don't think it is worthy even though it was Maki submitting it, and you don't believe your community who voted it up, and you don't believe in Andy the author.
It was a judgement call that went bad, we all have made such judgement calls.
I don't see anyone being evil or bad here, I just see a place where things can be improved and tweaked.
Andy rocks. Wherever he goes (or stays) will benefit from it.
I once had to make a similiar decision. I was part of the Google webmaster group, and would spend hours everyday answering peoples questions. I really wasn't getting anything back from that community and I left it.
Any community builders must be able to, in some matter, make their members feel appreciated.
There is no quicker way to make someone feel unappreciated than to remove their content.
Evrytime you remove someones content, you are risking losing a member of that community (and potentially many others). When the person is a clearly valuable and remarkably active member, then you are REALLY rolling the dice.
My read between the lines isn't that it's Sphinn, but the Sphinner's that Andy's sick of and I'm not surprised. It's become a shooting gallery of SEO's. one-upmanship, Google bashing and a nice dose of black hat for seasoning.
If I were actually selling my services I sure as hell wouldn't point my customers to Sphinn, not now, not ever since Sphinn doesn't appear to be for the SEO client, it's aimed at the SEO's themselves because the client wouldn't know what the fuss is all about on a good day and nobody in their right mind would want to explain it to them.
So what's the purpose here of SEOs writing for SEOs?
I think it wasn't the best mod in the world either. Still, retrospect and all that. Who else never made a mistake? Sphinns loss for sure. Lessons learnt no doubt.
"If I were actually selling my services I sure as hell wouldn't point my customers to Sphinn, not now, not ever since Sphinn doesn't appear to be for the SEO client"
Me neither Bill, because sphinn is more about social media marketing than search optimization.
I will also miss Andy here. I seldom sphinned what he submitted or agreed with what he said in comments, but clearly he is one of the sharpest minds in the online marketing industry. I probably read every single comment he posted on Sphinn.
I still don't understand why Andy's post got benched while Jim Boykin's post was allowed to go hot. I think both posts offer services that many readers on Sphinn would find valuable.
The question Rob should be asking isn't "is this piece self-promotional"? Every post on Sphinn is self-promotional one way or another. The question is whether or not readers will find value in a submission. Is an article giving back to the reader as much as its taking away? In this case, I think the answer is a borderline-yes (I personally didn't find the post all that interesting though).
That said, I don't think Rob or Danny needs to apologize for deciding that a post is spam. It also doesn't matter who wrote the piece; I don't believe in preferencial treatment or looking the other way depending on who commits an offense. I believe in a level playing field.
Lastly, I agree with IncrediBILL. I don't think Andy leaving has much to do with this particular incident. If the sole reason he is leaving is because he felt slighted by a mod, I'd think Andy is overreacting. No, what Rob did was just a straw that broke the camel's back.
Communities change and evolve - people move on. It's a natural part of the evolution of communities.
I have no idea what happened with Andy and frankly I'm not interested - Sphinn is a billed as an "Internet marketing news discussion" community but has become more a "bloggers posturing for attention" community.
Too many egos have allowed themselves to be fed here, and if Danny and his moderators are trying to focus more on drama than drama queens, then this can only be lauded.
People with commercial SEO/SEM/marketing experience usually have very little time to get involved with communities, but Sphinn can yet offer an incentive to bring people of this calibre in for real discussion again like when it launched, and I really hope it does again over time. The community members will learn an awful lot more from industry pros, than bloggers just out for linkbait.
2 cynical cents that I felt just needed saying.
Along the same lines as Brian's comment, people do come and go from communities. I personally have more respect for those who leave a community for whatever reason, who do it quitely and privately.
If you don't like a community anymore, then don't go there. But, publicly trashing it is usually just done for one's own ego rather than for the good of the community. After all, if you're leaving it for good, then there's no reason to try to change it for the better.
I've left communities previously because I didn't agree with the moderation. I decided the place wasn't for me and I wasn't going to waste my time trying to help the people there anymore. But I didn't feel the need to make a big deal of it. I just never went back, and chalked it up to their loss, not mine.
I would have a lot more respect for Andy had he done the same...simply exited quietly. But I guess everyone has their own way of dealing with things.
@Jill: He notified the readers. That's acceptable. I think the reasons are you outlined are actually why he didn't want it submitted to any social news sites.
Have to agree with Brian. I don't know Andy personally, and he seems to talk a lot of sense, however as has been said people come and go, and I am sure Sphinn will survive.
Andy's tone does seem somewhat concrete in tone - but I personally am impressed by your approach to the issue Danny, and I can't help thinking that your personal response in this issue should stand you and SMX/Sphinn in good stead
Shame, though I think the criticisms of Sphinn's mod team are overblown. They're a pretty fair and professional bunch (you won't find many better moderated communities) and would've listened to Andy's complaints had he made any before deciding he'd had enough.
Doesn't sound like he'll be back, but I hope his content will continue to filter through to Sphinn regardless.
FYI, on the entire "should this have been submitted" issue that had Tim feeling kind of bad, since Andy had said:
I just noticed that Andy himself submitted his story to PlugIM (a social media site for internet marketers like Sphinn) and commented on how he specifically left a button up for it.
So I guess Andy really does want his story and issues with Sphinn to be discussed and submitted to social media sites -- just, perhaps, not at Sphinn itself.
Andy had issues in the past that Sphinn was somehow robbing the attention he wanted to give either on his own blog or at existing sites like PlugIM that were out there before Sphinn came along.
I spent a considerable amount of time responding to those concerns in comments to his post about them, as well as here on Sphinn (see here and here). Since that time, I was kind of surprised that he seemed to have warmed to the idea of Sphinn. But it was great having him take part, as he both successfully submitting stories and having them go hot, as well as knowing that others were submitting his many good stories, and they were visible here.
Anyway, for whatever reason Andy felt he wanted to bail, best for him going forward.
Man the SEO/SEM world is like a sowing circle or retirement community sometimes. Plenty of time on our hands to only go looking with what is wrong in the neighborhood and gossip about it.
FYI.. if you don't want people to submit articles to social communities.. Should probably take the social media buttons off the bottom of the post.
Every site moderates and everyone always bitches about that moderation... and no one more loudly than the person who go moderated.
Did Andy write this article purely to push in Sphinn to get money... NO.. and thus he should not care at all if it was removed from Sphinn.. It is not really industry news that an online marketer is going to be charging for his knowledge or services...
If Andy did intend to gain profit from the post through Sphinn then it should have been removed.
Seems to me that all sites moderate. Google hand jobs sites and just about every other site out there moderates.
Lets face it.. for many of us this is a site that is filled with freinds. So the gesture that people liked the article is kind of lost here. I can do a post about my cat and it will go to front page of Sphinn because i know EVERYONE on this damn site.
No one is not going to vote on Maki's stuff and that is how social is. Friends want to help you out and they do so by voting for you. I do the same thing. That does not mean that they think the content should be on Sphinn.
We are marketers who care very little, this is an assumption not all fit in, about what should or should not be in a site as long as it helps a friend or our bottom line.
I don't know Andy but i will say this. If you don't want to use a site then don't use it. Your users and people in general don't need a long ass explanation on why you are not using it. That changes the post from a personal message to a subtle stab at getting your "FU Sphinn" message out without obviously sounding like a complaint/rant.
But by publishing the article at all. He ranted...