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Saddle Up Boys and Girls, Sphinn Needs a Posse
Went Hot: February 14, 2008 - 2:48 pm
Posted By: Lyndon 507 days ago
Topic Type: Discussion
Category: Sphinn Zone
Interesting, at first I though, nah, never gonna use it. Why do I need some seo nutter coming after me for desphinning his "Rand Was Satan's' Dad" post. But on the other hand, why not.
What do I care?
In my opinion there is so much crap that gets Sphunn here, you may agree, you may not, but at least lets have a discourse. A desphinn is part of that discourse.
Now I am not going to desphinn someone eagerly trying to climb the Sphinn mountain. I am more liable to vote down those who know better. My first proper desphinn was one of Marty's submits. I thought the post way to flimsy to satisfy the appetite of those seeking juicy online marketing morsels, and so I desphunn it.
I have desphunn once, and yes, I will desphunn again.
So come on, don't be shy, vote down that piece of crap that you have been dying to do all this time. And if people get umpty, tough. This is big boys rules now.
70 Comments
Comments
Sounds like you're appointing yourself Sheriff, eh Lyndon? :-)
You got my Sphinn. I think any submission that points to a blog post that only points to the real story should be sunk.
Hear, hear, Lyndon.
It's not even big boys (girls) rules. After all this isn't American Idol. A Desphinn should not be seen as a challenge to mortal combat. It's quite clear that many Sphinns are done without much thought and analysis. A Desphinn should not be done in such a lighthearted way but it's not meant to be a sworn affidavit. I must admit I'm treating the Desphinn Button as the Ho-Hum Button I was hoping to get. It's just my opinion and after all it's worth only half a Sphinn or less.
Actually you DeSphunn something I submitted recently too ;)
And I agree we shouldn't be afraid to DeSphinn stuff and we shouldn't be offended if our stuff gets DeSphunn. It's a part of the system and it kinda makes us all a part of the moderation team. Now we are accountable, if we don't like something then DeSphinn it!
Desphunn, I went to the page and read it. Is this the start of "Postcard blogging". Does the front page of sphinn really need articles that are shorter than a USA Today horoscope?
Not really the sheriff, just someone who is prepared to say what I think. I know there are people out there worried that if they desphinn someone they will not get a sphinn in future. If people don't sphinn you for such reason, then more fool them.
The point is, if you are seen desphinning crap, then you obviously respect quality, and in my book that means you are cool.
If I see people don't desphin, but moan on the sidelines, then I suggest you grow a pair.
I agree it's not mortal combat, merely opinion.
I wont take a desphinn personal if you don't.
I don't know who just voted my comment down, but the comment I made was the exact words that Lyndon used as his reasoning behind Desphinning Brians post that Marty Shunn.. http://sphinn.com/story/28009#c31970 It was not because I feel this way about Desphinning..
In actuality, my main concern as far as the Desphinn button is the fact that it is equal to me telling someone else that they have no right to Sphinn something they found as valuable. With all of the drama going on in our midst between Stumbleupon SEO/M haters, I just don't think it is a wise choice to allow the any room to attack Sphinn with a heavier arsenal..Do ew honestly think they won't wise up and begin their hate attacks here?
Sphinn will need protection from these types, not just the people posting blogs that we individually feel are worthless..
If I vote for a president, I would hope that no one has the right to remove my vote.. (Although I sincerely wish Desphinn could have been used in our determining Bush's election.)
Btw..don't we have a comment area? This area should be better utilized to be suppportive of a post as well as to dispute a posts quality. There is no need for a Desphinn button, because there was already a sufficient arena for this sort of debate.
Looks like I have already been desphunn because I desphunn one of Marty's posts, sigh. I would rather be desphunn because of the post here surely that's how it should be, rather than someone with a bone to pick.
I have absolutely no probs with being desphunn, but at least make it to do with the actual post your desphinning. Else it all gets a bit like the school yard.
The truth is... we sphinn a lot of stuff because the submitter or the site linked is a friend or someone you met at a conference. Sphinn is a way for the industry to scratch each other's back.
This is not to say that sphinn users don't recognize or support great content... I know many do actively spend time on Sphinn to vote up stuff on Upcoming/What's New and I applaud their efforts.
But it irritates me to see low-value, high noise stuff hitting the frontpage or hogging the Top 10 Most Sphunn queue, especially when other more valuable stuff just languishes and dies because the owner of the blog isn't in the industry nor does he/her have any friends here.
I think we shouldn't take the desphinn too seriously. If you honestly don't think an article is good, feel free to desphinn it, irregardless of who the submitter or the site owner is.
Yeah - what Maki said.
Lyndon, you are a blunt person that's not afraid to say what you feel. You are going to piss people off. You are going to get DeSphunn at times as a result. That's just the way it is. I'm actually very similar to you in my bluntness except without your long standing reputation to back it up and I've got less tact than you in my whining. (although you definitely whine just as much as I do)
The reality is that 1 DeSphinn is nothing. Don't sweat it. If your story really is important, it'll still go hot. When you've got a gang of like 15 people DeSphinning your stuff then I think it's time to start sounding the alarm. Give the system time to work.
Who desphunn what?
Oh, this is a Tempest in a Teapot...GREAT HEADLINE here Lyndon.
I desphunn some brand new user (no other votes, comments or submissions - imho, either the owner or a competitor framing 'em) submitting Beanstalk seo's blog. Not even a short post - the blog itself! Gimme a break! And likewise some other person who submitted a video seo blog. Just 'cuz they're dofollow links, doesn't mean you should abuse this place.
Oh, and my desphinns are challenges to mortal kombat :P
Glad you like it Mary ;)
Brits don't whine, they whinge or moan. It's Amercans who whine.
At least I will know who desphinns me and what they claim is their reason. And so will you. Like I say, I wont take it personal if it's the post you disagree with.
Oh! The Passion of The Christ on St Valentine's day.
Gamermk: I have to agree with you for the most part. But I am concerned that so many people want to think it is advisable to allow something to become a problem before putting it in proper perspective.
Aren't the most beneficial decisions made upon analytics and preparation...preventive measures?..
There are issues being overlooked and discarded...
Example: You said, "When you've got a gang of like 15 people DeSphinning your stuff then I think it's time to start sounding the alarm. Give the system time to work."
Hasn't the drama within SU already provided us with enough insight to see that Desphinn is a potential danger zone? Yes, gangs happen..
Aren't they already throwing stones in our blogs with nasty comments? Aren't they already ganging up on us in SU with vulgarity, hostility, and criminal behaavior? Do you think they have 'limits' cause they have such warm hearts underneath it all?..
Yea....ok then, whatever..
Why I dislike the Desphinn function
Some discussion and debate is healthy, and I'm going to use the opportunity here to explain in a few words a couple of different reasons why I find the Desphinn button to be harmful rather than helpful to the Sphinn community.
1. Desphinn is a shortcut to intelligent discussion
A Sphinn allows someone to vote on the merit of a submitted news article or topic for discussion. Comments are available to allow people to discuss the merits of something submitted, or even the purpose of the original Sphinn itself. If you like and agree with a submission, and want to add to the conversation, then you could sphinn the entry and write a comment. If you disagreed with something, then you could write a comment explaining why, and possibly prompt an intelligent discussion, and perhaps convince people not to sphinn a news post or discussion post.
Desphinning is a shortcut to that discussion, and eliminates the possibility of discussion, since it exists outside of the framework of comments about a topic. It also undermines the votes of people who liked, sphunn, and appreciated the original post. While someone has to submit a reason for desphinning something, that reason doesn't have to be particularly compelling or insightful, or persuasive. Instead of writing a comment that disagrees with the news article or discussion started and which may persuade people not to sphinn something, a despinn grants someone the power to remove positive responses from active members of the community.
2. Sphinn (and Desphinn) is prone to abuse
A recommendation system is only as good as its ability to fend off attack from malicious users. Here are two, amongst possibly many ways, that Sphinn as a recommendation system can be abused:
a) Anyone can create sockpuppets (malicious profile injections) in multiple accounts, so that they can sphinn and desphinn as they wish, regardless of the actual merits of the sphinn. See: Toward Trustworthy Recommender Systems: An Analysis of Attack Models and Algorithm Robustness (http://maya.cs.depaul.edu/~mobasher/papers/mbbw-acmtoit-07.pdf)
Desphinning is not a legitimate response to an unworthy submission being voted up that shouldn't have been, but rather is just as likely prone to being a method of attack on legitimate votes.
b) Anyone can use shilling attacks, ganging up (or gathering a posse) on something that they don't like by providing desphinns or negative votes on comments. See: Finding Group Shilling in Recommendation System (http://www2005.org/cdrom/docs/p960.pdf)
The harm with a Desphinn is that it makes it easier to attack the legitimate recommendations of members of the community.
I'd much rather prefer to see an intelligent comment written about something submitted exploring its value, than a desphinn that takes away from someone who did find value in a submission. Keep Sphinn more human, and less mechanical - have people disagree with the merits of a post with conversation, and not a button click and semi-reasonable rationale.
Bill: I worship the ground you walk on..Touche' you beautiful minded love muffin. Well said. :-)~
@billslawski I totally agree with you, dearest Bill! (sorry @SpostareDuro ;) You are taking words straight from my mouth! :D
@Lara: Apology? For what? For possibly misunderstanding what it is that I wrote? Which must be the case actually.
By agreeing with Bill, you were agreeing with me. Bill and I spoke the same message. But he had a more thorough and descriptive manner of expressing what it was that I wanted to say all along. Afterall, him and I are both in Delaware, drinking from the same coffee pot, discussing this in full as I write this.
He is agreement with me and I him, although he is commenting because there are things that need to be said. I have nothing to do with that.
@SpostareDuro Yes, yes, yes of course I agree with both of you :D (Lora BTW ;)
I am very sensitive and I only sphinn quality content....so I don't expect to be DeSphunn! ;)
Like Kim, above, I don't see a need for Desphinn. This comment field is a fine place to disagree with an article, if you have the time or interest in doing so.
I predict that the desphinn will act as a vehicle for further embarassing displays of bad manners and infighting here and will simply make Sphinn a more contentious, not a more useful, environment.
It's striking me that when Sphinn was launched, a whole bunch of people walked into a new room. We were each given the facility to positively reward such content as we found praiseworthy, to ignore whatever we found immaterial, and to discuss the merit or lack of merit of anything that was sphunn. The atmosphere was a positive one, focused on sharing and praise.
The Desphinn button declares that negativity will now be an important part of the culture here. Everyone in the Sphinn room has to take a second look at their 'friends', wondering if they are about to be given the equivalent of a 'put down' any time they speak up. "How stupid were you to sphinn that?" says the desphinn button.
Is this really something you want to say, to any human being?
Because this is an open discussion, I want to add to this that Google was founded by two men with ties to the Montessori school of thought. One of the hallmarks of the Montessori method is that participation, not competition, is what creates peaceful, useful societies. Confident people tend not to need to put down their peers in order to feel powerful. In point of fact, causing others to feel humiliation or pain is generally abhorent to compassionate people.
So, someone isn't as with it as you about what the Sphinn community will like. Someone writes with less skill than you. Someone isn't as adept as you at finding the best stories. Your silence, in the form of the absence of your sphinn-vote, not only communicates in a non-confrontational way that this person needs to improve if they want to be recognized, but it also saves you time and removes the temptation for you to be spending a lot of your valuable time landing all over peers you find foolish. All of us in this industry are awfully busy people.
Some people, I know, call what goes on at Digg/Reddit/Etc. 'all in good fun.' I, personally was really shocked by what the Stumbleupon users said to Marty Weintraub recently. It hurt me to see someone making racial threats to a Jewish man. I was disturbed by Jen Laycock's story yesterday about a Social Media mob coming to the defense of the boys who had clearly stepped over a line with their video.
Do you think Sphinn's users are going to make better showing in this regard? I certainly hope so, but having witnessed some of the unplesant infighting already here, without desphinn, I believe we are on the verge of seeing a lot more of this in future. The bizarre attacks on Rand Fishkin showed me that Rand is capable of handling criticism with an impressive degree of aplomb. He can take it, in other words. But should he have to?
The powers of ignoring what you find useless and of engaging in sincere discussion where you find it important to do so are already very strong powers. The community Sphinn will create for itself wherin negativity is given its own shiny button puts a different power in all of our hands. I come here for education, but I know that for many, this is truly a social setting. It is, after all, Social Media. Over the coming months, it will be very interesting to see the negative aspect of the way people socialize. So many sphinners are expressing real excitement over this new power. I suppose that says something important about this community.
As for me, I continue to feel that put downs make for a poor learning environment. I've taken a lot of time writing this response. It's something I've been thinking about over the past few weeks. I value reading the other comments in this discussion.
Great post, billslawski
Worth Sphinning ;-)
Bill Slawski: Why I dislike the Desphinn function
Oh, my bad..Then you thought I'd be upset at you for calling Bill "dearest bill"?
He is a lot of female's 'dearest' don't ya know? I think that makes me lucky...:-)~
Whoa, I must have been writing that at the same exact time as Bill's comment, above. I was really glad to hit submit and come back here to discover that a clear-headed and very professional man like Bill is seeing the potential harm in this function for the Sphinn community.
@SpostareDuro You've got me ;)
Thank God for desphinn. Bill - you make great points about how it can be abused, but those can also be applied to upvotes, so it's just leveling the playing field for the manipulators on both sides :-)
BTW - Did the post about me being Satan's Dad make it to the popular list? If not, I'm sure it was only because a bunch of evil sock puppet desphinners attacked it...
@ Bill, quite a number of things are prone to abuse, nuclear power, guns, even voting. Doesn't mean we get rid of them. I expect people to behave and use them respectfully, not simply to score points because of something said in another post or because someone is wearing the wrong colour shoes.
I don't think just because some people may misuse something it should not be allowed to be used by the masses.
From what I understand from your comment, you are also saying that a Sphinn can be abused also, are you pressing for this to be removed too?
I agree with you that they can be abused, but a sphinn/desphinn is still discourse, but it a shortenend version which carries numerous connotations depending on the context of the giver.
Personally I only think such things are able to prove/disprove themselves once in the public domain and out of the imagination.
"The posse" is merely a metaphor to illustrate a more complex process, saving me the time writing a long and boorish post and enable me to spend more time eating my fish pie.
I want to make sure that Sphinn remains an informative and valuable use of my time. I love this site because.. unlike the several other sites I participate on... I believe that "Sphinn is good stuff that helps me with business" and that it has "valuable" content that justifies the time I spend reading and participating on here, rather than working.
I'm used to voting up and down.. I do it like mad on sites like Digg and Reddit.. so it's not a new contecpt, although the community on those sites is much larger and more impersonal.
If Sphinn get to the point that it is filled with ho-hum articles and self-promotion... it's lost all of the value that it holds for me as a community and quality content source.
Yes, I write articles that I hope will be of interest to the Sphinn and internet marketing community. And I am aware that "quality" is subjective. However, if anything I write or submit doesn't seem to contain a worthwhile amount of fresh news, quality humor, or internet marketing insight - if it's not remotely "front page material" - I encourage you to vote accordingly.
I'll take it like a man and keep trying until I can come up with some great content that nobody can deny.
Great discussion. I hope desphinn is going to be intelligently used and expect the mods here will be keeping a close eye on it at least during the initial roll out. Making the desphinn comments part of the main conversation would be a nice touch.
I haven't used it as yet, though almost did earlier today. Hit desphin and realized that at the moment I couldn't come up with a better way to say "inexperienced know-nothing wanna-be" and backed out.
It's against the established Internet traditions! All Internet is based on assumption that only positive reaction is counted (see Google PR). This is how we live and how we want to live. I don't want to alter my style of writing or subjects I'm writing about for fear of being marked negatively. The idea of down voting is in fact a form of silent censorship through the back door.
@SpostareDuro, the desphinn feature is not equal to you telling someone they have no right to sphinn something, not in my view, not at all. It's simply a way for you to more strongly disagree with a story. People disagree with things all the time. Doesn't mean they don't respect each other. And we have votes all the time. Until now, there's been no way for you to vote against a story, if you really disagreed with it. You could only stay neutral. Now you have an option. Simple as that.
I totally doubt the drama of SU will come here. The main reason is that this is a community of marketers. The SU users seems to be upset that marketers are "ruining" their space. We want marketers here. Hey, we don't want junk, off topic material -- but I don't expect any wars breaking out.
@billslawski, I don't think Sphinn is a shortcut to discussion. I'll give you an example, the single story since it was launched where I has been actively used -- the discusson that started with upset on the SEOmoz mailing. That's got 10 desphinns to 6 sphinns. That's a lot. That's unusual. I see virtually no stories with desphinns at all.
To make those desphinns, you had to comment. But we purposely ask to keep it short and encourage people to talk in more depth in the main comment area. And they did -- 26 in all. That's a lot.
Not only did they comment, but Gamermk who started the discussion being upset, concluded by saying "I gotta say Rand earned some pretty serious respect points with me not getting swept up in the whole emotional wave."
Wow. I thought that was a great outcome. In addition, Rand's taken a fair number of beatings over here (as well as a lot of praise, I have to add). Until now, those who have disagreed with one group that might be upset have just had to sit back. I'm glad they have an option to strongly disagree with an actual vote, if they want.
I'm working on a longer blog post about this, but we know that Sphinn is a community that has micro-communities within it. Friends can sphinn each other; fans of a publication might sphinn that publication, and each of these groups on its own can push something hot with no counter-balance. Yes, commenting against something might slow it. But I think desphinn helps also as a good check-and-balance.
In addition, we don't require people to comment why they sphinn something. That's been raised as a suggestion, and it might be something we should do. But one thing at a time.
As for the desphinn comments being outside the main ones, I remember we had a number of discussions about whether this should happen, and I honestly can't remember why now we split them up. Logistically, it's harder to merge them in. But that could happen, and we might go that way. But I have to say again, on the one major use of it so far, people were actively reference the short comments in the desphinn section and working them into the main comments.
Desphinn (and sphinn, as you point out) can certainly be abused. But right now, it is far easier for you to create sock puppets to vote things up than to vote things down. On top of this, the mods are watching things. Desphinns are not buried, and it really stands out if you see one.
I also disagree about the idea of desphinns as an attack on a "legitimate" vote. What's legitimate? A desphinn is simply a negative vote. Elections have these, in case where you're voting on a particular issue or a proposition. Honestly, we've had a weird election system here where you could only vote for, not against. I really feel that desphinn empowers and reenfranchises people in situations where they've felt powerless.
I'm totally with you that intelligent comments are the way to go, and desphinn is designed to encourage that. Folks, be sure you try how it works on the test page to really understand this.
I also feel like rather than us freaking out a bit about all the things that desphinn could do, can we give it more than a few days? Can we actually see? What I've seen so far is that there is far more worry about how it could be abused than any actual abuse going on.
Finally, coming from the moderator perspective, it is no fun having to walk in and make judgement calls. We've several cases that have come up recently where people have wanted to call the mods out on the carpet over some alleged unfairness. Desphinn gives the community itself more control to make judgements. It's not that the mods are going away, and I do think we have an important role to play. But so does desphinn.
Overall, disagree does not mean disrepect nor dissention.
Thanks Lyndon for getting this conversation going. And for advocating the responsible use of Desphinn.
It's interesting because we've been lobbied on both sides of this issue. In fact, we've been lobbied for a good deal more - some things that would lessen the democratic atmosphere here. Talk of "power users" or "authority users" or other means to enable some select members to have more influence. I think these types of things are far worse for a community than a button that can be similarly used by all - with the same effects regardless of who it is used by.
@Bill - Great points, all valid, but as Rand mentioned, it cuts both ways. Also, note that we limit the length of a desphinn comment. We'd much prefer that people use the comments to discuss a topic, than use Desphinn (submit more than 200 chars and you'll see our message about doing just that). Desphinn is not intended to replace discussion of topics in comments.
@Miriam - I sincerely appreciate your points about the nature of the discourse at social sites. I'm often appalled - seriously folks, appalled ;-) - by some of the things said here at Sphinn. Not just because it is often inappropriately personal and diminishes the overall quality of any argument - but also because I know, without a doubt - that if that person were standing in front of me having the same discussion, he/she would not say much of what gets typed. And I can't suffer cowards - much less rude ones. The Desphinn button has no influence on that type of behavior though - that's an individual's decision.
Even more central to the Montessori method is each individual's personal responsibility for his/her behavior within a community. We are providing a community, and are asking that people in that community respect one another - and agree or disagree in a civil manner.
So to further Lyndon's point - guns don't kill people...people do. Ok, not the best analogy but...
We're providing tools for people to submit information and then express opinions about such information. And we're giving this community the benefit of the doubt that they will be used properly. (Largely they have) But we have mechanisms in place if they are not.
The problem is that whether or not the desphinn button exists, unpleasant discourse will happen. It's unfortunate, but again, goes to personal responsibility, not to the existence of a button.
@SexySEO - I don't think anyone needs to alter their style of writing - or fear being marked negatively. You put yourself out there, for better or for worse, when publising in any medium. Not everyone will like it, or agree. And that's ok. I'm sure you don't really expect them to. But isn't the founding principle of the Internet the open and free flow of information and exchange of ideas? And no silent censorship here - precisely why we require a comment - and public ownership of the down vote.
We're watching how this feature gets used - and if it becomes an overall negative for the growth of Sphinn or the quality of the community here - we'll yank it. It's literally an on/off button.
@MIchelle: TERRIFIC response. So do I read you correctly that you think that "reputation" type features are dangerous?
Reputation type features are what StumbleUpon is all about.
@Danny it seems to me that If 22 people Sphinn a post without Desphinns occurring, then it will go Hot. But now it may take 32 because others have invalidated 10 persons votes. Maybe the answer lies inadjusting how many Sphinns it would take to go make the post go Hot while encouraging the use of the comment area to allow for expressing if a person feels it's of value or not.
I think that the discussion here has only validated the fact that Desphinn is not needed. The comment area is the place to encourage or discourage Sphinns..a real discussion place as to the value or lack of in a post.
And no one has really bothered to clearly appreciate Miriam's analogy which made the hairs of my arm stand on end. I too came here excited about the education that is offered here. And it seems that we may be moving in a different direction than before that may make it difficult for newcomers to want to jump in to be a part of it. Desphinn is intimidating I think.
From what I've noted in my travels so far, , there are newcomers and others that have useful and insightful offerings (not to mention the desire to promote others as they are appreciating what they are learning here) that may be discouraged by the Desphinn rejection. Hell, it sometimes takes months for credible voices to come out of hiding just to make a simple comment here.
We may never see one of the bst posts of the year that could have been given by a newcomer (or someone more easily intimidated) because they were scared to get their feet wet due to possible rejection.
All I'm saying is, there are other more productive ways to handle this.
Btw, When I initially used the Desphinn button..I tried to take it back, but was not permitted to. I was initially just trying to prove a point that anyone could do it out of spite or other reasons..Not because the content is poor and 'deserving' (whatever that means) of a Desphinn. Obviously, anything with this much potential for debate and thought research is not only deserving of a Sphinn, but a gold medal. But then again, we may not have known this if the persons that found it disagreeable had Desphunn it.
@aimClear - I guess what I'm saying, Marty, is that reputation type features *can* be dangerous. They don't have to be. It really depends on the community, and the algorithm - what set of behaviors gives person A a better reputation than person B? What set of behaviors knocks that reputation score back a bit? Which variables are more important than the others, hwo should they be weighted? And how easily gamed is it?
And on the flip side, why is it important - really? I could do the math on how Sphinn users stack up using the algo we've got to create reputation ranking and profiles for our users. Do you think the user's ranking would really reflect the quality of his/her content and participation? Maybe. But maybe not. Also, once you build a heirarchical system and are no longer dealing with a flat and fair landscape - how does that change and shape user participation, motivation, and community growth?
We've got a lot of experts here, a lot of newbies, a lot of people in between - and everyone with something valuable to add. Do people really need gold stars that badly??
But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong ;-)
Honestly, I think recognition for users that contribute regularly and are active in the community is really very important - and all kidding aside, I think having gold stars next the username or something like that would be fine. But having the stars translate into more "power" at the site...that's when you get into the murky waters of gaming, back-scratching, etc. and honestly - have a look at the other sites - has the content really improved as a result of such things? Has anything ever been made better by a small group at the top having more X, Y, or Z than the rest? < / naivete >
@SpostareDuro, we already spent a lot of time figuring out different ratios and when to apply desphinns -- and it's not one to one as you are suggesting. It is not 32-10 = 22. From what Rob said earlier:
On desphinns, I don't agree at all -- sorry, but I don't -- that the discussion has proven desphinn is not needed. We need to try it if for only two reasons. (1) without it, people start using the spam button to disagree with stories. We know this. We've watched it happen. (2) people can comment all they want that a story shouldn't go hot, but if you've got a group deciding to make it so, there is nothing those opposed can do to slow that down.
As for what Miriam is saying, again -- I just don't agree. I don't feel having a desphinn button declares negativity at all. Indeed, for all that people are saying we should just have it all in comments, the comments sometimes can get far more negative than a desphinn. And I've already said that pushing desphinn is not the same as saying someone is stupid. With respect, I simply don't think most people are going to view it that way.
In terms of more productive ways -- this is one of many tools we have. I believe it is indeed a productive and useful tool. We're definitely going to try it properly. We talked about why we wanted to do this from the beginning and made a number of changes to try and address concerns that some had. But in the short time we've had it, I've simply not seen this huge concern that people are worrying about. It deserves a fair shake. If it's not working, or if it is harmful to the community, we'll remove it or change it.
As for it wiping out posts because someone is frightened off by a desphinn -- then we'd better not have comments. Because I've seen biting comments already that can scare off new people, no desphinn required.
Ultimately, it's not a case of because there's desphinn, suddenly good stuff won't see the light of day, newcomers will fear being rejected or that packs of angry people will start desphinning stuff left and right. That's because the primarily way stuff goes hot or people are encouraged to stay here is through how the community itself expresses itself through commenting and voting.
We're not full of spam. We have good stories making it to the home page. We continually have newcomers welcomed. We do have "unknowns" get stories going hot. It's that overall climate that is important, not any particular tool or feature on its own.
Danny - Bill's absolutely right about desphinn. It's a "spam report" button - that Lydon says sphinners shouldn't take personally ostensibly because it's "all about the post."
Right. Thanks for your tuppence, Lyndon.
What's the real purpose of desphinn? To keep a story from hitting the front page. That's about it. The idea that the best content consistently rises to the top now is utter nonsense.
Case in point: the fact all SearchEngineLand stories don't hit the front page.
If I disagree with your POV, Danny, I have the opportunity to state my case here in the comments. I can engage you in a discussion - and give you the opportunity to prove me wrong.
Desphinn does short circuit the process and curtails discussion. As you point out, it's a substitute for "reporting spam."
As Maki notes, sphinn is largely about industry friendships and the "if I scratch your back you scratch mine" philosophy. Desphinn would only damage industry friendships and create fear, uncertainty and distrust in the community. Not to mention wasting a whole lot of time on who's desphinning who.
By all means test it.
Case in point -- not all Search Engine Land stories should hit the front page. We blog a lot of short hits to point to important stories to alert our readers to them. Those stories should go hot, not us. I'd only want us to go hot if we have unique and compelling content. But since anyone can submit anything, I'd be more than happy if someone desphunn a story from us that someone might have submitted with a comment like "just desphinning because the original story is already out there."
I did NOT say it was a substitute for reporting spam. I said that without it, people will use the spam button as a substitute for lacking a desphinning option. People want to disagree with stories. They want to express that sometimes by preventing a story from going to the home page. There's nothing wrong with that, if they are using the same care in desphinning that they do in sphinning. But if you don't let them desphinn, they go for something else -- call a story spam when it might not be. Many here who have seen their stories die on Digg as "spam" just because the Diggers simply disagreed with the story understand this.
The continued pronouncements that deshinn curtails discussion, honestly, aren't backed by anything. We've had desphinn for only a few days. We've had practically nothing get desphunn. We have maybe two articles where there is actual heavy desphinning. I pointed one of them out already. 30 comments, and you want to tell me discussion is curtailed? And the person who started it comes away thinking he's got new respect for the person he was ticked with when he originally posted.
I can tell you now that desphinn isn't going away today, tomorrow or in the next week or two. It's going to get a proper workout. If it's harmful in the way some people are worried about, it will be changed or it will go. We've said this all along. But we're going to try it for all the reason I've already covered. It deserves at least a chance to see how it goes.
Let me remind everyone that the underlying software, Pligg, has desphinn/bury switched on by default. It also allows easy clicks with no thought to wipe out a story. We deliberately disabled the feature at launch, so we could think through the issues of allowing buries, especially to ensure that there is public reporting, something that is infuriating to many people at Digg, when you can't tell who is killing stories or why.
By the way, I'm going to be pretty silent on Sphinn starting in about an hour and for the next week. Vacation time! I'll check in from time to time, but my commenting activity will be down as I hit the slopes.
Loud censorshipTM copyright 2008 SexySEO
Danny,
"(2) people can comment all they want that a story shouldn't go hot, but if you've got a group deciding to make it so, there is nothing those opposed can do to slow that down."
So the DeSphinn is about preventing a story to go hot, just because some people disagree with the writter!!!
Democracy is also to allow those who you differ with to express themselves in public. By preventing a story you differ with its content from going hot is the same as to prevent your opponents of expresing themselves in public!
"I can tell you now that desphinn isn't going away today, tomorrow or in the next week or two."
Fair enough. But shouldn't you give us a specific date where the test would end, where we can take a look at this matter again together?
"By preventing a story you differ with its content from going hot is the same as to prevent your opponents of expresing themselves in public!"
Everything you post in Sphinn is public. Not just the stuff that goes hot.
Desphinn is only saying: I don't think this deserves to be on the front page. Nothing more, nothing less.
sza
"Everything you post in Sphinn is public. Not just the stuff that goes hot."
But the "public-visibility" of a post on Hot Topics (Sphinn front page) is much much higher than the visibility of a post on What's New section.
Harith, yes, desphinn is absolutely designed as a way for people to prevent a story from going hot, if they don't like it. And in a democracy, people vote on things -- for and against. So I don't see a problem.
As for a date on looking at it again, no, I don't have one. Why would I? If it's working, it won't need to be reviewed. If it's not working, we'll start to see a lot of complaints about it. But I'd certainly say that we'd come back and review how it is going along with everything on the site as we go through the next rev of developments.
By the way, if people haven't checked out the Features added page (get to it off help), you'll see that we changed things so that comments don't automatically get hidden even if they get negative votes. I thought that was a good suggestion that came out of feedback from John Andrews, and it goes a lot to the concerns that some people are so worried about -- that opinions won't be heard.
Danny,
Ok. Lets start with something very good you have fixed and you and the folks at Sphinn deserve a Thank You for: Comments don't automatically get hidden even if they get negative votes.
Then we arrive at your comment:
"Harith, yes, desphinn is absolutely designed as a way for people to prevent a story from going hot, if they don't like it. And in a democracy, people vote on things -- for and against. So I don't see a problem."
Correct, in democracy people vote on things, BUT.... people don't deprive their opponents of visibility for example on front pages of newspapers or on public TV channels like BBC or here in Denmark like public TV channel TV1.
Ok. Sphinn is a private owned platform. The owner decides the rules. So we can't compare it to public TV ;-)
I like the desphinn. I have not used it much. I do say we need a spam report for comments. I have seen al ot of link spam entering into the comments.
Like bnowlnlater, I like having the desphinn option, and I think Danny and the mods have done a good job of deciding how it should be used, and what its weight should be. So, this is my Positive Vote for the Desphinn function.
I see the Sphinn community is divided about this issue.
Lets take a look back a little. History is very good teacher, sometimes. SEO/SEM folks were fed up and tired of Digg. Why?
I can't say how Sphinn would be in future, but as it is now, its a paradise where we all can breath fresh air and speak our minds, freely. Those are Sphinn strength, btw.!
I guess we are many who share the same feelings about that DeSphinn thing. Just afraid that the monster would be a killer of views some people don't like. And In live, people dislike things for different reasons. DISLIKE isn't an objective attitude at all.
IMO, DeSphinn is an instument to deprive your opponent of his/her right to present his/her point of views on the most promenent place on Sphinn, just because you dislike what he/she is saying.
But I might stand corrected in few months. Lets test it and wait and see ;-)
I'm not tired of digg, whose tired of digg?
Can't desphinn because of the broken comment box...
Danny, that's a whole new definition of Democracy.
Here's something to ponder while you're hitting the slopes, along the lines of many a truth is said in jest:
Methinks you spend too much time in right-wing Orange County, California. ;-) Or, not enough.
Come back to the United States of America and our thriving democracy:
One Man, One Vote.
One Woman, One Vote.
Throw in the electoral college & you've got yourself a republic - but still a democratic one.
You're living in a Constitutional Monarchy. I don't mean Sphinn (yet). The good ol' UK. Great Britain? Great, but not a democracy.
In the UK, the Monarch's head of state and the Prime Minister's the head of government, or at least Wikipedia thinks so. Lyndon? As Matt McG said, you're the self-appointed sheriff with a posse. So make that "Sheriff of Nottingham."
Danny, you're the King of Sphinn, so I defer to your judgment about what's best for your community. As I mentioned inmy comments, by all means test desphinn.
Or you could post the official "Danny Sullivan Desphinn Sphinn Election."All in favor, say "Aye!" All opposed, "Likesign!" The Ayes have it either way. So, Parliament is in session. :-) Can we hear from the House of Lords (moderators, weigh in!). Me? I'm a commoner.
One sphinn avatar, One Vote. (I have several avatars in my sphinn jpg, but humbly ask for one vote and no fractional votes, as in a desphinn.)
The very fact that you made Desphinn a Fraction (a number expressed as "A DIVIDED By B") should serve as a warning to the community.
Fraction + Fraction = FACTION.
Now with this post, I fully expect the Great Brit Mike Grehan to take me to the Tower of London during SES to get a proper shave on the back of my American neck.
Hey Kevin, OC's my home -- and there are plenty of people there who are not right wing, me included. Got it? So go easy. And if you're coming over to the UK, um, go easy on the whole you're not a democracy thing. People vote here; Queen has virtually no power and Parliament (elected by the people) is ultimately the final authority on anything. Or so my professor taught me in British Politics.
I keep saying I'm working on a blog post. I am. One of the things I wanted to explore is how Sphinn is not a democracy. We did not make suggestions like Digg or Google that it was somehow count the votes and let the votes win. We have an editor. We have moderators. For the most part, the community is awesome. But the community does not make all decisions, yet those of running the controls of Sphinn are responsible to it.
I've been trying to figure out what to call it. Benevolent dictatorship? Communityship? Some mixture of a community with high involvement yet not where the community solely runs things.
Anyway, I'm thinking on it and will try to do a post that's more coherent.
Anyway, I can't quite follow all the meanderings you're making. Sounds like you say everyone should vote on whether there will be desphinns or not. At the same time, there's also the argument if we don't have desphinns, then the voting itself has less balance.
Suffice to say, no, we're not having an election on it now. We had a very long discussion about even having desphinn, and I felt confident enough we should go ahead and try it. We have repeatedly said that if it doesn't seem to be working out, we'll fix it or pull it. I think asking for more than two or three days is fair enough. Harith wanted a time frame. Harith, give it a month. Mark the day, come back, post Desphinn: One Month Onward, and we'll see how it goes.
Kevin, in terms of fractions etc, we did that because desphinning does have negative aspects, and we wanted to be cautious. That's exactly why at your own Search Engine Watch Forums, when you derank reputation, you have to provide a reason why. To make people be more thoughtful. You might not recall this since you've been at SEW for such a short period of time (six months or nine now?). Elisabeth and I started those forums from scratch, built out new features like that working with the community and grew it up with a lot of praise. Are you telling me now that SEW is full of factions?
The idea that desphinning has suddenly caused factions is absurd. You have factions just with Sphinning alone, where there is no "fraction" of whatever. You've got some people who are friends, colleagues, work together or whatever who may tend to sphinn the same things. We know that there's overt "hey sphinn this" going on, as well. And that's fine. One nice thing about each of the "factions" if you will is that they help ensure everyone gets some diversity in what goes hot. But one nice thing about the desphinning is that if one faction is pushing something that just isn't above the bar, others at Sphinn don't have to sit on there hands and gripe about all the crud that's now making it to the home page. Which people may now be forgetting was a complaint about four months in.
Also, don't forget the issue that happens if you have sphinns and desphinn equal. Do you have a story that goes hot, drops, goes back hot, then drops? That's part of what we thought about with all this. It's not perfect, but there is some reasoning there.
One last thought. You're really into this, Kevin -- this issue. I'd really look forward to seeing you perhaps write about the Sphinn community here -- all these search marketers, figuring out how to do social media to work for them. Seems like it's something the Search Engine Watch readers might like to know about. Did a Google search -- doesn't look like you've ever profiled Sphinn and it's like mentioned in two or three articles (Kevin Newcomb kindly gave us a call out in his end of the year wrap, thanks, Kevin).
I'd be happy to make myself available for an interview or Q&A.
To pick up on the political anology, I'd say that Desphinn was like a caucus. Because you need to participate publicly -- pro or con. In a primary, you get to vote in secret. Both are "democratic." But the caucus requires you to take a public stand. I was elected to the Board of Selectmen in the Town of Acton, MA, and we had the New England Town Meeting form of government. There, you had to take everything to the townspeople who turned up to vote on everything from the budget (which always passed) to a proposed leash law for dogs (which failed the one time it came up). That kind of rough and tumble world prepared me for features like Desphinn. If you get negative feedback, that's still feedback. And it doesn't mean that's the last word on the issue -- as the length of this thread of comments demonstrates. So, cool. Love the Desphinn feature. Now all we need is a leash law for dogs.
If one can only sphinn for something it seems a similar process to some countries where there is only one candidate per seat/riding. Opposition can only not vote.
Adding desphinn adds a second candidate for consideration much as some jurisdictions include a 'none of the above' candidate. If nota wins the party or parties must present new candidates for consideration.
There are at least three reasons for opposition:
1. don't like the presenter or the originator - reverse of 'vote for our friend'.
2. don't like the article's content beit accuracy, tone, whatever.
3. like the article, as it is where it is, but feel it is not appropriate for Sphinn.
Only the first has unpleasant overtones. Unfortunately people often confuse themselves with their offerings so when they suggest a link and it gets refuted they take it as dismissing them themselves, not simply their suggestion.
I like the option to vote and I appreciate a choice of candidates. Even poor berated underweighted nota. I believe the great stopper to a fload of desphinns is having to go on record with 'why'? It is not simply a quick click and gone. One must be accountable for one's action.
I suggest, as have others, that it be applied to sphinns as well. Go on the record with why it is good, what value it brings to the marketplace. Make the friends of friends doing favours for friends put some effort into their actions.
So far Danny and crew have made few mis-steps, none serious, and I appreciate the care they are giving the process. Hopefully the noise will abate while the knowledge, opinions, and conversations flourish.
Since the system is now in place and apparently will only be changed in a month or so if there is sufficient dissension, I'm not sure whether suggesting ways to improve the system isn't really a waste of ink. However since others are commenting on the shortcomings of the system that is being adopted, perhaps I can have one last go at this.
In my view the problems are created because Sphinn space is seen as one dimensional. A Sphinn moves you to the right on that dimension. A De-Sphinn moves you a fraction of a unit to the left on that dimension. The only score that is visible is the combination of the number of Sphinns and the number of fractional De-Sphinns. It's somewhat like a tug of war. No wonder there is dissension.
Clearly when De-Sphinns occur, some readers have a different point of view on a post than others who recorded their Sphinns. Why not display those different points of view on a different axis. In other words make the voting space two-dimensional. My suggestion is that the Sphinning process continues exactly as it has done from the start. The only difference would be to record for each post very visibly the number of Sphinns and the number of De-Sphinns. This gives a more even-handed way of handling both and should encourage less divisive debate among both groups of individuals. The idea is set out at greater length in another Sphinn Discussion Topic.
Am I a voice crying in the wilderness here? Is there no one else who would find it handy to see a quick indicator of the number of Sphinns and the number of De-Sphinns.
Barry -- I do see the number of desphinns right next to the "Desphinn" link. Maybe I get that as a moderator? I don't know.
Anyway, just to chime in on this issue:
1) There's way too much conjecture in this discussion. People are passing judgment on what might happen, could happen, or "seems" like will happen. How about we wait to see what DOES happen before we pass judgment?
2) As a Sphinn user, I learn a lot more from the 35% of my submits that don't go hot than I learn from the 65% that do. Social media is about contributing to the community. Desphinn is just another way for the community to tell you if your contributions are what the community wants. Nothing more. If you choose to take a desphinn on one of your submissions as a personal attack, well, that's your choice. Success in life (and in social media?) isn't about what happens to you, it's about how you react to what happens to you.
I encourage everyone to give desphinns constructively, and if you get desphunn, to take it as constructive criticism. If desphinns are given vindictively, let the moderators and admins know and we'll take care of it. Danny has been saying that repeatedly from day one.
If we all use the desphinn appropriately, it can become something that really helps clean up two of the problems this community has been complaining about all along: low-quality submissions, and low-quality submissions reaching the home page.
Thanks. Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Matt, just for clarity as to what I'm suggesting. If I go to the Hot Topics or New Topics I see a Sphinn symbol with a number on it. That number is an unknown combination of Sphinns and De-Sphinns. I'm suggesting that the number shown should be the total number of Sphinns. Immediately underneath that should be the number of De-Sphinns.
Re the number you see, I believe it's only visible to moderators since I don't see it. If I had the energy I could click on the De-Sphinn tab and count the number of reasons given, which is equal to the number of De-Sphinners. Who needs all this?
Ya the number of DeSphinns doesn't show up beside the link for us lowly commoners ;)
I agree that button is a whaste of time. If you wan't to argue - do it with arguments. Pushing the button is no good argument. It's, actually, no argument at all. Bill, I'm on your side.
Barry - I don't know if what you're suggesting with the big, blue circle is possible. But I'm going to suggest that all users be able to see the number of desphinns as easily as us mods. You shouldn't have to click through to count desphinn by reading the number of comments. (in my opinion...)
Ah, I thought the number of sphinns and desphinns were showing for everyone. That's an easy change to do. Michelle, if you're out there and see this, light it up.
Barry, we debating putting the two numbers right next to each other in the button itself, but it just got too confusing.
Thanks for that. I wasn't thinking the button should have anything other than the total number of Sphinns - indeed I would much prefer undiscounted by any fractional De-Sphinns. The number of De-Sphinns could then appear in the text below the button.
Yeah, we debated that a lot. Do we show in the button "net" sphinns, total sphinns, etc. One issue we have with showing total sphinns, however, is it looks weird. Imagine this:
23 - Story A, no desphinns
22 - Story B, no desphinns
24 - Story C, 4 desphinns (making it net 22 sphinns)
See? Then you have people thinking why are one of those out of order.
So we went with net sphinns and decided not to show gross figures on the tabs because if you try to do the math, that might get confusing too. But I suspect few will bother to look. However, I also realize it is really helpful if you see all the 0 desphinns.
No wonder you've all been freaking out. See, the mods, we've seen story after story showing no desphinns at all. Like no one is doing them. But as a regular user, you just see the tab and might assume there are desphinns you can't see. Well, putting the numbers up immediately solves that.
And now we can all have fun doing the math. Numbers are up for all to see.
@ Michelle: "Reputation" is much more than little gold stars. Who cares about little gold stars.
Right now, with every cycle of new users arriving and old ones leaving, it’s like having to start over and previous participation adds up to little as Sphinn evolves. Is it worth it for long term users given that there are no annuities socially for sustained activity?
I mean, could the algorithm define reputation and authority with least subtle perks? Let me clafity.
The Tao Sphinn
It could be that having tons of friends that don’t participate is not as valuable as having a few that are active. Clearly having a lot of friends but never personally voting or submitting is not as powerful. Sphinning things that don’t go hot matters but maybe not as much as Sphinning tons of "hots." Voting for lots of posts that go hot matters. Voting for stuff that does NOT go hot all the time might matter less. Etc…
Indicators of Reputation
Whatever the indicators are (not gold stars :)...longevity, participation, success, friends, quality of friends, desphins, etc.. could all factor. Little gold stars are for pre-schoolers.
The reality is that if you're reputation earns "hots" today, that means nothing tomorrow when the community turns over. Evolution of readership is TOTALLY natural. However, If a long term user’s community-equity-earned doesn't roll over somehow to each new generation, there is ZERO advantage for all the work put into Sphinn. Strict adherence to "what have you done for me lately" might be just too crude a paradigm to keep the overal level of users you want here engaged. Especially given the savy of this crowd.
Not Complaining
Look, I totally love Sphinn. This is NOT a complaint. Sphinn has s helped the aimClear brand a lot. I learn a lot. I love this place. That said, without subtle advantages from investment and longevity one's incentive, as opposed to having to work ever harder with NO equity amassing, is to skim the hot page 3X a day, get the industry info one seeks, not bother submitting, and spend time just enjoying.
One is Silver and the Other's Gold
Maybe it should be somewhat easier for long term community participants than newbies. However, new users are worth their weight in gold. Newbies HAVE to have a pathway to earn their way into the hierarchy-without them getting discouraged. Maybe there’s an “easy” period for newbies and THEN after they’ve had a taste of success it gets a little harder and they have to invest to maintain it.
No Need to Reinvent the Wheel
I like the way StumbleUpon does it. With an authority profile on SU, it’s easier to get things hot because the profile has gotten lots of good recommendations, success of stories bookmarked, longevity, etc…even how long somone keeps SU open on their desktop matters. Users EARN the right over time to recomend content.
Easy to Say
We understand how intense this type of programming is, and the conception thereof. You and Danny are JUST the folks to break the ground and pull it off. You already have. The challenge is to incent long term users to stay involved in light of community turnover.
It’s much easier to dream this in color than for you guys to actually craft the math. Michelle, you semm like a hell of a programer. However, it sounds like this is aa 300K programming gig to me. Any volunteers? :)
Bottom line, right now, with every cycle of new users arriving and old ones leaving, it’s like having to start over.
PS, I can't get inline spell check to work :).
@Michelle - I thank you for your reply. You are quite correct - Montessori is founded on the concept that individuals are responsible for themselves and for the way they interact with their community. Unfortunately, in SM, just like in the real world, there are always irresponsible, rude and thoughtless people. Because positives and negatives are just part of life, desphinn's negativity, perhaps, makes this community more true to life.
But that's the thing...this isn't real life. We get to CHOOSE (amazing) how we want online communities to be. It's a bit like remaking the world, and I guess the idealist in me feels disappointed that people would choose to go out of their way to be negative in a virtual world. I'd like people to be nicer than that. Oh, well.
@Danny - Very good of you to reply. It's hard for me to see what you're saying. Desphinn isn't negative? It strikes me so strongly as the opposite of positive (sphinn), I'm not sure what else to call it besides negative. But, just as you say, you think this will be good for this community you are working so hard to build, and I am going to watch, for sure, to see what must be your vision of how this will play out.
@Kim - I really thank you for responding to what I wrote. I guess both of us care enough about Sphinn that we don't want to see its value lessened (at least in our own estimation). I guess my baseline fear here is that a permissive attitude toward negativity will simply generate more negativity. I have seen this happen elsewhere on the web, with ugly results, and these things make me feel worse about mankind. On the one hand, that's a pity, but on the other hand, it is a study in human nature, if one can view the evolution of SM dispassionately. I thought what you wrote was terrific!
Miriam
Is anyone working anymore? I am getting to these parties later and later because I actually have work to do :) I had that convo with another SEO today - just couldn't resist commenting about all of the (often meaningless) banter that goes on in the industry sometimes. I would have made it a post, but didn't want to be DeSphunn :)