Sphinn - If you want to be a part of the SEO industry, ACT LIKE IT

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If you want to be a part of the SEO industry, ACT LIKE IT

Went Hot: October 7, 2007 - 6:27 am
Posted By: MattMcGee 638 days ago
Topic Type: News Story (Jump to http://massa.techndu.com)
Category: SEM Industry

Bob Massa says: "I have been reading for a long, LONG time how SEO is chock full of con men and incompetents, (the number usually thrown about was 90%) by some of the most well known and widely read figures within the SEO community. It has always made me uncomfortable and often downright personally offended seeing the hand that feeds being bitten and with so little reliance on historical reference or anything close to scientifically arrived at data."

I say: "Amen, Bob!"

23 Comments

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Comments

from Jill 638 days ago #

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I wish, like Matt, I could say "Amen, Bob." But unfortunately, the emails, calls, forum posts and general misinformation that I get and see with my own eyes shows me that unfortunately there still are tons of bad SEOs out there who are indeed giving the good ones a bad rep.

I guess Bob never gets calls or emails from folks who have paid money to an "SEO" company and then never saw an increase in traffic or conversions. And I guess he never reads awful SEO articles and forum posts that simply regurgitate bad/wrong SEO myths.

I get those calls and read those posts. People are getting ripped off every day. People are believing bad SEO info and implementing it on their sites. That is a fact. Is it 90% of SEOs that are perpetuating this nonesense? Who knows.

Yes, there are tons of companies who do get SEO and do a great job for their clients. Many, many more than there were a few years ago. But there are also many who are exactly the opposite.

What we can do about it? I don't really know. My method is to keep talking about it and to keep educating the world on how SEO should be done. Pretending the bad ones don't exist or are just a few oddball SEOs isn't going to help, imo.

from g1smd 638 days ago #

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All this talk about Blackhat and Whitehat is probably not much different to the arguments between qualified physicians on the one side and the unqualified quack doctors and snake-oil sellers on the other, only a century or so ago.

Once the industry matures, the quacks will mostly have been run out of town.

from Jill 638 days ago #

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g1smd, imo, this is not about BH/WH at all. It's about incompetence vs. competence.

Very, very, very different things.

Nothing wrong with Black Hats in my book. But something very much wrong with incompetent SEOs.

from g1smd 638 days ago #

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:splutter: ""Nothing wrong with Black Hats in my book.""

You're kidding, right? You're aware of all the "Jill Whalen Condones Spam" posts that comment will spark?

from Jill 638 days ago #

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No, I'm not kidding.

Black hats are not our problem. Incompetent SEOs are.

Most black hats come around eventually when they get tired of chasing algos. Those that don't, whatever. Who cares what people selling viagra do?

from MiriamEllis 638 days ago #

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Interesting article, Matt. Sphunn.

I have to say, with Jill, the 'bad guys' are the ones who set false expectations and cheat clients. I think one of the most nauseating experiences for me is when I'm on the phone with a new potential client who has approached us for a redesign of a site or some such work, and I talk to them about what needs to happen, and then they go on to tell me how they are speaking with several other companies, too. And then they tell you:

They said I'd have top rankings in a few weeks

They are going to list me in their directory

They said we need to work on my meta keywords tags

They said you can make text that's the same color as the background so that you get more keywords on the page, but no one sees them

Etc....

And I have this gut thumping, grasping moment of thinking, "Oh my gosh, if these folks don't go with me, they are going to get so messed about." In the past, I would have said something like, "Well...err...I would be careful about what you are being told," afraid that if I called the competition out as scammers, this would leave me sounding like a liar, desperate for a contract. I've gotten so sick of this, now, that I've become pretty straightforward about not only telling the potential client that what is being sold to them as SEO is, in fact, spam, and often give them references for further reading about this.

In a good situation, the response from the client is,

"Okay, good, it sounds like you really know what you're talking about."

In a bad situation, the response is,

"Well, I don't understand why you don't do the same things as these guys. And they're cheaper, too, so I'll have to go with them."

ARRGGG!

Anyhow, that's my report from the trenches on how this goes, and why I continue to agree with the good SEO/bad SEO thing. Spend a week on eBay's storeowner forums and you'll see just how bad this situation can be, in terms of myths, misinformation and downright lies.

from g1smd 638 days ago #

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*** ... it keeps coming back to you needing to stop thinking in terms of needing to get your site SEO’d and start thinking in terms of your site needing more traffic ... and what risk level you are willing to accept to get more traffic, how fast, or your site needing more conversions, ... or your site needing better functionality, etc. You need to define what type of service you need and set verifiable levels of performance ... ***

This is the bit I want to highlight. This is just one of the reasons why the industry gets a negative press: it is down to the people that take risks, and do work that eventually negatively impacts the client's site. Even with disclosure, is a client really clued up as to how bad a risk the person they hired is taking with their site, traffic, and ultimately their entire business? In many cases, I think they are not so informed.

from Jill 638 days ago #

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Exactly, Miriam. And those are the incompetents I'm talking about. They are rampant. Totally rampant.

@ g1smd, most blackhats are only f*cking with their own sites. It's the incompetents that are wreaking havoc on client's stuff.

from g1smd 638 days ago #

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OK. I understand. You're saying this..

Blackhat: someone who uses risky techniques, and/or creates what others might call "spam", but only does that to their own sites.

Incompetent: someone who uses risky techniques, and/or creates what others might call "spam", but does that to a client's site without full disclosure that the technique is risky.

What's the difference?

from Halfdeck 638 days ago #

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"Nothing wrong with Black Hats in my book"

Jill, maybe you want to tell that to the Sphinn moderaters who are chasing around spammers 24/7 and to the people who submit spam reports on this site who is sick and tired of seeing spam. And remember what you said about wanting to nuke Blogrush posts on Sphinn?

Nothing wrong with spammers as long as they don't come into YOUR backyard. I think that pretty much sums up why places like Digg, Wikipedia, Google, etc are tired of SEOs who operate with a spammer's mentality.

Don't get me wrong. I'm ready and willing to spam if that's what it takes. But I don't try to sugarcoat what I do.

"This is just one of the reasons why the industry gets a negative press: it is down to the people that take risks, and do work that eventually negatively impacts the client's site. "

g1smd, in fairness to Bob, I think he's talking about risks that doesn't involve spammy tactics: for example, instead of spending $200/day on PPC traffic, you spend $1,000/day. More risk, bigger potential reward.

from Jill 638 days ago #

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@g1smd - kinda sorta. But I see blackhats as smart people who know exactly what they're doing to get high rankings. Where incompetents *think* they know what they're doing, but never quite get it. They do things like keyword stuffing, and think it's SEO copywriting. That sort of thing. They most likely call themselves white hats. Their work gets little if any results, and certainly not results that are long lasting. Some might call those blackhats, but true blackhats would bristle at being considered to be anything like them. And rightfully so, because they are nothing alike.

@halfdeck - Forum spammers are a whole 'nother ballgame. I hate them with a passion and will report them or nuke them (if on my own forum) at will. Forum spammers suck big time. I wasn't referring to them in my previous post.

from mvandemar 638 days ago #

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Can we please try and differentiate black hats from spammers? Yes, sometimes there is a crossover between the two, as people who "spam" search engines will indeed use black hat methods for rankings, but the two concepts are actually completely different.

Spam inherently means "unwanted". You can use "black hat" methods on a site that everybody loves, however, and agrees should be at the top once it gets there. There are plenty of sites that manipulated their way to the top (paid links, heavy subdomain usage, link exchanges, etc) that are now industry leaders. This bs of using the 2 interchangeably is really annoying imo. I know it is used alot, but that still doesn't make it correct.

from Harith 637 days ago #

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While Jill is busy defending Black Hats, allow me to recall a recent comment of Matt Cutts:

"Harith, I’m comfortable with SEO being whitehat/blackhat; I don’t think you’d get many blackhats to say “I don’t do SEO; I do spam!”

http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/whitehat-seo-tips-for-bloggers/#comment-110803

from IncrediBILL 637 days ago #

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Jill, you're all over the map link a near sighted cartographer.

How can you say black hat's aren't the problem in one hand while decrying spam as evil on the other and I can easily point you to black hat sites with spam scripts for everything from blog to membership registration spam so which side are you on anyway?

FYI, Black Hat SEO can also be incompetent SEO. Just ask anyone that did that dance with the black hat devil had a site penalized for doorway pages or a myriad of other black hat nonsense.

from massa 637 days ago #

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It would appear my challenge has fallen on deaf ears. I really don't understand the appeal of tearing down your own indsutry.

I'm going to try to challenge alll "real" seo professionals again. Stop the negativity, Stop talking aobut how bsad the industry is and say something good about SEO or someone in it.

Jill has worked long ansd hard for many, many years and while I do not always agree with what she says, she certainly desreves the respect of anyone in the business.

Incredibill is another with whom I rrarely agree but his intellect and internet experioence and expertise. he is one of those people who when he speaks you may not like to hear what he says but you'd be a fool not to listen and consider his position carefully.

see, it's not so hard to focus on something positive. Now, can anyone else avoid the urge and say anything good about SEO?

from ryanol 637 days ago #

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Jill I agree with you, its the incompetence that is the problem.

the whole blackhat vs whitehat is comical....to me it basically comes down to:

most blackhats spread around MFA and employ hit and run tactics to generate money for themselves.

most white hats talk about themselves or Matt Cutts.

I know that this is going to draw flack but thats just the way I see it as a casual observer of SEO.

If you can't outrank MFA then you got bigger fish to fry.

from SportsGuy 637 days ago #

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I'm studying to get my Green Hat - I'm hoping to corner the market in "environmentally friendly SEO".

Right now I'm goign for a fititng of my purple pants to wear with the hat! ;)

Hats matter less than quality of work.

Black poses a problm in that theydefine and abuse tactic that many white hats *could* use legitimately.

Plus, with only 10 space son the average SERP page, it can be tough to out manuever the black hats to the top spots.

I'm not too concened about the "hat" debate, but I am very concerned about the quality of folks out there...and of those taking "quicky" training courses and thinking they are "instant experts".

from Jill 637 days ago #

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I think at this point, we're simply down to semantics. We can argue all day about what's a black hat, what's an incompetent SEO and what's a whitehat, and there are certainly overlaps between all three.

Bob, I agree with you that we should be positive about our industry, and I think that many are.

To live up to your challenge, here are a few of the good things coming out of our industry lately:

SEMPO is at the point where they are doing great stuff, via their online training courses and the positive press they provide.
More and more SEM companies are focusing on making sites better not worse (like they used to do)
SEM/SEO conferences have positive sessions, with nary a sign of "how to spam" sessions
Online places like Sphinn exist where all types of SEM/SEOs can hang together and discuss the industry in a mature fashion (well usually it's mature!)
Thousands of SEM/SEO blogs exist which provide accurate info. (Lots exist with bad info as well, but as long as the good ones out number the bad, we're probably okay!)
Companies are finally coming around to the fact that they need to build SEO into their site from the beginning and it's less of an afterthought
Companies are also learning that SEO should be in the marketing budget not the IT one
Numerous old-time "blackhats" have switched sides and gone corporate, providing their amazing technical knowledge and insights to mainstream companies (in a good way)
Google has worked hard to ensure that inept SEO techniques don't work as well as they used to, and when they do, they have a shorter lifespan

What else? I'm sure I missed some.

from massa 637 days ago #

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>the guru give Jill a standing ovation

from IncrediBILL 637 days ago #

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massa assumes I want him to agree with me ;)

from iBrian 636 days ago #

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Another problem is possibly that the people least capable are the ones trying to have the bigger presence - cold calling, big ad campaigns, etc. A lot of the people most capable in the SEO industry are the least visible in the industry. 2c.

from massa 636 days ago #

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Au contriare Incredibll. Massa assumes no such thing. He knew long ago you don't want people agreeing with you. that's your hook and not a bad one either. He believes if anyone did agree with you, you'd change position.

from Gamermk 635 days ago #

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To summarize for those that don't want to read the back and forth comments.

4 Types of SEO (yes there are more... but this is what the babbling is about)

1. Competent White Hats
2. Incompetent White Hats
3. Competent Black Hats
4. Incompetent Black Hats

Some say #1 is the only acceptable SEO, some say #1 and #3 are acceptable. This article (which I can't read due to length, lack of heading, no bold text etc) apparently has issue with #1 talking about #2 and #4 being 90% of the industry.

My Advice:
Create results for clients and use the testimonials/statistics to prove you are worth it and stop blaming others for "ruining your credability". You control your own fate. Stop complaining.