News Source: http://massa.techndu.com
Published: Oct 07, 2007 - 06:27 am
Story Found By: MattMcGee 1589 Days ago
Category: SEM
I say: "Amen, Bob!"
17 Comments
Sorry this site requires JavaScript to be enabled in your browser. See the following guide on How to enable JavaScript in Internet Explorer, Netscape, Firefox and Safari. Alternatively you may be blocking JavaScript with an advert-related or developer plugin. Please check your browser plugins.
News Source: http://massa.techndu.com
Published: Oct 07, 2007 - 06:27 am
Story Found By: MattMcGee 1589 Days ago
Category: SEM
I say: "Amen, Bob!"
17 Comments
Upcoming Conferences
Search Engine Land produces SMX, the Search Marketing Expo conference series. SMX events deliver the most comprehensive educational and networking experiences - whether you're just starting in search marketing or you're a seasoned expert.
Join us at an upcoming SMX event:
- SMX West - Feb. 28 - Mar. 1, 2012
- SMX Munich - Mar. 27-28, 2012
- SMX Toronto - Apr. 25-26, 2012
- SMX Sydney - May 1-2, 2012
- SMX London - May 15-16, 2012
- SMX Advanced Seattle - June 5-6, 2012
- SMX Paris - June 7-8 2012
- SMX Melbourne - Aug. 2012
- SMX East - Oct. 2-4, 2012
- SMX Stockholm - Sept. 15-16, 2012
- SMX Social Media Marketing - Dec. 2012
Latest News From Marketing Land
- Marketing Day: February 10, 2012
- Report: iPhone, iPad Now Drive More Web Traffic Than Mac OS
- Drawing Out Your Affiliate Program Marketing Plan
- Is Yahoo About To Make Another Big Mistake — With Its Display Ad Business?
- Google Analytics For The Enterprise: Perception & Reality
- - See more news at Marketing Land -
Upcoming Webcasts
Learn more about search marketing with our free online webcasts and webinars from our sister site, Search Marketing Now. Upcoming online events include:
- The Inside Scoop on Automating and Optimizing Your PPC Campaigns - February 21, 2012
Latest News From Search Engine Land
- Google’s Recent Domain Registrations: Labs, Screenwise & AdWords
- Google AdWords Gets Shared Lists To Eliminate Duplicate Data Entry
- SearchCap: The Day In Search, February 10, 2012
- Now, Mitt Romney Has A Santorum-Like Bing & Google Problem
- Search In Pics: Google Sugar Cube, Yahoo Valentines & Chrome M&M’s
- - See more news at Search Engine Land -
Comments
All this talk about Blackhat and Whitehat is probably not much different to the arguments between qualified physicians on the one side and the unqualified quack doctors and snake-oil sellers on the other, only a century or so ago.Once the industry matures, the quacks will mostly have been run out of town.
:splutter: ""Nothing wrong with Black Hats in my book."" You’re kidding, right? You’re aware of all the "Jill Whalen Condones Spam" posts that comment will spark?
Interesting article, Matt. Sphunn.I have to say, with Jill, the ’bad guys’ are the ones who set false expectations and cheat clients. I think one of the most nauseating experiences for me is when I’m on the phone with a new potential client who has approached us for a redesign of a site or some such work, and I talk to them about what needs to happen, and then they go on to tell me how they are speaking with several other companies, too. And then they tell you:They said I’d have top rankings in a few weeksThey are going to list me in their directoryThey said we need to work on my meta keywords tagsThey said you can make text that’s the same color as the background so that you get more keywords on the page, but no one sees themEtc....And I have this gut thumping, grasping moment of thinking, "Oh my gosh, if these folks don’t go with me, they are going to get so messed about." In the past, I would have said something like, "Well...err...I would be careful about what you are being told," afraid that if I called the competition out as scammers, this would leave me sounding like a liar, desperate for a contract. I’ve gotten so sick of this, now, that I’ve become pretty straightforward about not only telling the potential client that what is being sold to them as SEO is, in fact, spam, and often give them references for further reading about this.In a good situation, the response from the client is,"Okay, good, it sounds like you really know what you’re talking about."In a bad situation, the response is,"Well, I don’t understand why you don’t do the same things as these guys. And they’re cheaper, too, so I’ll have to go with them."ARRGGG!Anyhow, that’s my report from the trenches on how this goes, and why I continue to agree with the good SEO/bad SEO thing. Spend a week on eBay’s storeowner forums and you’ll see just how bad this situation can be, in terms of myths, misinformation and downright lies.
*** ... it keeps coming back to you needing to stop thinking in terms of needing to get your site SEO’d and start thinking in terms of your site needing more traffic ... and what risk level you are willing to accept to get more traffic, how fast, or your site needing more conversions, ... or your site needing better functionality, etc. You need to define what type of service you need and set verifiable levels of performance ... ***This is the bit I want to highlight. This is just one of the reasons why the industry gets a negative press: it is down to the people that take risks, and do work that eventually negatively impacts the client’s site. Even with disclosure, is a client really clued up as to how bad a risk the person they hired is taking with their site, traffic, and ultimately their entire business? In many cases, I think they are not so informed.
OK. I understand. You’re saying this..Blackhat: someone who uses risky techniques, and/or creates what others might call "spam", but only does that to their own sites.Incompetent: someone who uses risky techniques, and/or creates what others might call "spam", but does that to a client’s site without full disclosure that the technique is risky.What’s the difference?
"Nothing wrong with Black Hats in my book"Jill, maybe you want to tell that to the Sphinn moderaters who are chasing around spammers 24/7 and to the people who submit spam reports on this site who is sick and tired of seeing spam. And remember what you said about wanting to nuke Blogrush posts on Sphinn?Nothing wrong with spammers as long as they don’t come into YOUR backyard. I think that pretty much sums up why places like Digg, Wikipedia, Google, etc are tired of SEOs who operate with a spammer’s mentality.Don’t get me wrong. I’m ready and willing to spam if that’s what it takes. But I don’t try to sugarcoat what I do."This is just one of the reasons why the industry gets a negative press: it is down to the people that take risks, and do work that eventually negatively impacts the client’s site. "g1smd, in fairness to Bob, I think he’s talking about risks that doesn’t involve spammy tactics: for example, instead of spending $200/day on PPC traffic, you spend $1,000/day. More risk, bigger potential reward.
Can we please try and differentiate black hats from spammers? Yes, sometimes there is a crossover between the two, as people who "spam" search engines will indeed use black hat methods for rankings, but the two concepts are actually completely different.Spam inherently means "unwanted". You can use "black hat" methods on a site that everybody loves, however, and agrees should be at the top once it gets there. There are plenty of sites that manipulated their way to the top (paid links, heavy subdomain usage, link exchanges, etc) that are now industry leaders. This bs of using the 2 interchangeably is really annoying imo. I know it is used alot, but that still doesn’t make it correct.
While Jill is busy defending Black Hats, allow me to recall a recent comment of Matt Cutts:"Harith, I’m comfortable with SEO being whitehat/blackhat; I don’t think you’d get many blackhats to say “I don’t do SEO; I do spam!”http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/whitehat-seo-tips-for-bloggers/#comment-110803
Jill, you’re all over the map link a near sighted cartographer.How can you say black hat’s aren’t the problem in one hand while decrying spam as evil on the other and I can easily point you to black hat sites with spam scripts for everything from blog to membership registration spam so which side are you on anyway?FYI, Black Hat SEO can also be incompetent SEO. Just ask anyone that did that dance with the black hat devil had a site penalized for doorway pages or a myriad of other black hat nonsense.
It would appear my challenge has fallen on deaf ears. I really don’t understand the appeal of tearing down your own indsutry. I’m going to try to challenge alll "real" seo professionals again. Stop the negativity, Stop talking aobut how bsad the industry is and say something good about SEO or someone in it.Jill has worked long ansd hard for many, many years and while I do not always agree with what she says, she certainly desreves the respect of anyone in the business. Incredibill is another with whom I rrarely agree but his intellect and internet experioence and expertise. he is one of those people who when he speaks you may not like to hear what he says but you’d be a fool not to listen and consider his position carefully. see, it’s not so hard to focus on something positive. Now, can anyone else avoid the urge and say anything good about SEO?
Jill I agree with you, its the incompetence that is the problem.the whole blackhat vs whitehat is comical....to me it basically comes down to:most blackhats spread around MFA and employ hit and run tactics to generate money for themselves.most white hats talk about themselves or Matt Cutts. I know that this is going to draw flack but thats just the way I see it as a casual observer of SEO. If you can’t outrank MFA then you got bigger fish to fry.
I’m studying to get my Green Hat - I’m hoping to corner the market in "environmentally friendly SEO".Right now I’m goign for a fititng of my purple pants to wear with the hat! ;)Hats matter less than quality of work.Black poses a problm in that theydefine and abuse tactic that many white hats *could* use legitimately.Plus, with only 10 space son the average SERP page, it can be tough to out manuever the black hats to the top spots.I’m not too concened about the "hat" debate, but I am very concerned about the quality of folks out there...and of those taking "quicky" training courses and thinking they are "instant experts".
>the guru give Jill a standing ovation <Excellent post JW. The Guru nominates Jill’s last post for best SEO Sphinn post of 07
massa assumes I want him to agree with me ;)
Another problem is possibly that the people least capable are the ones trying to have the bigger presence - cold calling, big ad campaigns, etc. A lot of the people most capable in the SEO industry are the least visible in the industry. 2c.
Au contriare Incredibll. Massa assumes no such thing. He knew long ago you don’t want people agreeing with you. that’s your hook and not a bad one either. He believes if anyone did agree with you, you’d change position.
To summarize for those that don’t want to read the back and forth comments.4 Types of SEO (yes there are more... but this is what the babbling is about)1. Competent White Hats2. Incompetent White Hats3. Competent Black Hats4. Incompetent Black HatsSome say #1 is the only acceptable SEO, some say #1 and #3 are acceptable. This article (which I can’t read due to length, lack of heading, no bold text etc) apparently has issue with #1 talking about #2 and #4 being 90% of the industry.My Advice: Create results for clients and use the testimonials/statistics to prove you are worth it and stop blaming others for "ruining your credability". You control your own fate. Stop complaining.