News Source: http://www.seobook.com
Published: Dec 06, 2008 - 04:14 pm
Story Found By: JeffMHoward 1629 Days ago
Category: SEO
35 Comments
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News Source: http://www.seobook.com
Published: Dec 06, 2008 - 04:14 pm
Story Found By: JeffMHoward 1629 Days ago
Category: SEO
35 Comments
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Comments
This is going to stir some debate!
Very nice post, far reaching.
One of Aaron’s best articles yet.
Title is a little deceptive but good post about the media.
Fascinating post though I think the connection between the main body of it & the conculsion is a little shaky. Still, a lot more interesting than the average bit of content on here.
Covers a huge breadth of topics and I like how they come back to the core idea at the end. Unfortunately though, I have to disagree with just one claim: That bubbles are the natural state of a healthy economy. Bubbles tend to be part of the third wave in an 80 year economic cycle - the current wave coming looks more like the fourth wave / prolonged crash.By the middle of the crash, when we realize that new bubbles aren’t going to take, we’ll start working on the foundation of the next real economic expansion (we’re already almost here). In this sense, green energy isn’t the next bubble, its the next base on which true wealth can be built again (we all need energy that doesn’t have negative externalities). Bubbles don’t typically create real value and are thus abandoned when they go out of style, but infrastructure and energy adds real value and takes real work to accomplish. Its quite un-bubble-like.Everything else about the nature of media, government, and large companies I agree with completely. I would just call it the new aristocracy rather than capitalism. (Too big to fail = too big to work in a competitive market)
Ditto what ciaran said.
Hmm...upon further thought. How is this making the front page of sphinn? The post isn’t about internet marketing. Although Aaron’s desired audience is "SEO’s", this isn’t an SEO article.I’m a little confused, how is non-internet marketing material is making the front page. I think Aaron Wall is a fantastic man and a great industry leader but I don’t think he gets immunity because he is an industry leader.This is a watercooler topic and I’m just wondering (now..) why is there a double standard on Sphinn.It’s a great topic, just not an internet marekting topic. Please note, I’m not trying to be a devil’s advocate, I’m just confused by the double-standard. I like Sphinn but I don’t understand how a moderator can say one thing to someone, then do another to someone else. I’m calling things how I see them, I got nothing against the mod’s, nor Aaron, nor this topic. I just think it’s non-Sphinn material.
@JoshuaSciarrino we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one. I found this to be a very thoughtful and well constructed piece discussing an issue in SEO that has come up quite often here at Sphinn and elsewhere. That of transparency - on the part of SEOs and SEs. And whether or not any given SEO should be involved in outing other SEOs or their tactics, to the SEs. You may disagree on the analogies drawn, but the topic is fundamentally relevant to parts of IM, and the article itself directly discussed SEO (and SE) business practices. <div><div></div><div>Using this article to claim there is a double standard on Sphinn is pretty far reaching. <div><div></div></div></div></div>
You may disagree on the analogies drawn<div></div><div>Again. i love the content but it’s not directly related to IM. It’s great content for delicious or slashdot but not Sphinn. Unless sphinn embraces the idea of political ideology. </div><div></div><div></div><div>the article itself directly discussed SEO (and SE) business practices.</div><div></div><div>Um no. Based by the title it’s to ’educate SEO’s about the media’. And a random side note about ’why seo outing is bad’. The post only contains about two-three paragraphs about why ’outing is bad’? How does that make it IM?? Seriously. If someone else were to write an article like this, I fully believe it would be <i>rejected</i>. But since an ’SEO leader’ says something, that makes it IM news. I don’t think so.</div><div></div><div></div><div>I fully believe this is quality enlightening content but the topic is NOT SEO, it’s NOT about SEO outing. It’s about ’educating SEOs (his friends) about the media and his opinion on them’. To be blunt, I agree with Aaron about 95% of what he said in the article but just because I agree with his content (or you for that matter), doesn’t make it IM news/content.</div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Aaron wrote: It is not going to be an easy post to write. It will eat thousands of dollars of my time. And I most likely will not make any sales from it</div><div>He is stating this will eat up his time. Props to him! =) But look at the second part "I most likely will not make any sales from it". Why? *Cough Cough* Because it’s NOT SEO related.</div><div></div><div></div><div>Aaron only hints and lightly brings up SEO. I have no problem with this, it’s his blog, not mine. He can talk about religion, social justice, whatever, but that won’t make it Internet Marketing. It would just be ’an Internet Marketer (in this case an SEO) talking about religion, social justice or whatever’.</div><div></div><div></div><div>If Aaron’s goal was to really discuss ’why seo outing is bad’. I’m sure he could’ve been more clear than just:</div><div>As an industry will we fare better building each other up or advocating knocking each other down?</div><div></div><div></div><div>[Post script] Hmm. Maybe I’m not being clear enough. If an expert gardner talks about the oppression in 3rd world countries (my note: great topic) and lightly brings up gardening in his speech. That doesn’t make the speech about gardening, it makes the speech about oppression in 3rd world countries.</div><div></div><div></div><div>I have no qualms with Aaron, I LIKE HIS POST but it’s NOT Internet Marketing related. Simple as that, no hard feelings toward Aaron. It just doesn’t make sense to me that an article that has 90% of the content is about Media/Government corruption and 10% about SEO ’outing’, makes the front page of an IM website. I do believe ’outing’ is stupid but he didn’t fully make the case against SEO outing.</div><div></div><div></div><div>Side note: I hope I’m not coming off as offensive or as a jerk, that is not my intension. I’m just trying to understand why a NON-IM article made the FP without being IM related.</div>
@JoshuaSciarrino: I read it and thought it was perfectly relevant to Internet Marketing and SEO. It might simply be that it doesn’t *appear* to be, and that might be because Aaron is not direct in his criticism of those who have adopted outing of competitors and whining about Google fariness as a business tactic in this Internet Marketing industry.Perhaps one needs to read between the lines to see more of the relevancy. Aaron doesn’t actually call Rand a jerk, nor does he directly associate Rand with harmful, irresponsible anti-competitive tactics. Had he done that, it might have been more relevant to more people.I also have read quite a bit of Noam Chomsky, so I see the relevance of the Manufactured Consent reference (as well as "necessary illusions" and other forms of marketing/propaganda that Chomsky understands better than any of us). If you are a marketer and haven’t read Chomsky because you think he’s a political figure, please reconsider. He earned his Ph.D. in linguistics and is considered the father of numerical linguistics... the very stuff that search engines are built upon. Since he was a student of both structural linguistics and philosophy, he has a unique (and brilliant) insight into ... you guessed it... marketing.
@JoshuaSciarrino there was no misunderstanding on my part about your complaints, I simply don’t agree with them. The comments and continued conversation on his blog after the piece, support the relevancy of the topic to IM - and provide further insight and commentary on it - largely (if not entirely) by search marketers. You are free to disagree, and desphinn (though you did initially give it a sphinn). That’s why we have these tools :-) But to assume there’s some larger conspiracy at work, is specious at best. <div></div><div></div><div>Perhaps you are looking for more direct or tactical information about SEO/IM. This piece does require a nuanced way of looking at the issues of transparency - and does heavily rely on offline based analogies to do so. It may have taken the long way around to get to it, but the points it makes about the core issues are related to marketing behavior on the web. Your not liking the percentage of the part to the whole notwithstanding, the article was written specifically to address an issue that remains topical in the internet marketing community.</div><div></div><div></div>
@JoshuaSciarrino remember in math class there was always "that guy" asking "is this going to be on the test"? Don’t be "that guy", don’t show up just looking to memorize what you have to know to pass the test and forget it a week later. Show up to learn something.Don’t think of sphinn like it’s and ATM with voting buttons, waiting for you to stroll by and withdraw some tactic.
there was no misunderstanding on my part about your complaints, I simply don’t agree with them<div></div><div>That’s cool. Just wanted to at least make my case clear. That’s all. You choose your decision and I’ll choose mine. </div><div></div><div></div><div>that it doesn’t *appear* to be, and that might be because Aaron is not direct in his criticism of those</div><div></div><div>Well, that’s not the case that was made. Michelle said this is ’directly related’. I say it’s too indirect but I don’t mind we have differing opinions. </div><div></div><div></div><div>You are free to disagree, and desphinn (though you did initially give it a sphinn)</div><div></div><div>Yup. Yea I did sphinn it at first, but then a few seconds later, I realized it was off topic with the current category. We all make mistakes. But Aaron did write a great article.</div><div></div><div></div><div>remember in math class there was always "that guy" asking "is this going to be on the test"?</div><div></div><div>Actually, my problem is that some pass the test with different answers in math class. When 2 + 2 = 4, they answer 3.5 and still get the answer right. :D Sorry but if I gotta eat a cobra heart, you should too. You don’t get immunity because of your ’name’ and/or ’claim to fame’.</div><div></div><div></div><div>I think others are misunderstanding me. I LOVED HIS ARTICLE. Hell, I thought it was amazing. But directly it’s not related to IM. Indirectly, most definitely. </div>
@JoshuaSciarrino First, I’m of the "This IS related to Internet marketing" camp. It may not be instructions on how to perform IM, but it is absolutely relevant to the industry.Second, Aaron Wall didn’t Sphinn this, so we can’t "blame" him for its appearance on Sphinn.Finally, I enjoyed the article. I’m glad it was on Sphinn because that’s how I found it. I’m happy to have read it.
<!--StartFragment-->Just so it doesn’t sound like I’m tooting my own horn. <!--EndFragment--> <div></div><div>mike.tekula said: I think it’s safe to say that your writing has burst <b>well beyond the boundaries of “SEO”</b> as a topic, and that, as far as I’m concerned, is all the more reason to read it.</div><!--StartFragment--> <!--EndFragment--> <div></div><div>Source: http://www.seobook.com/media-literacy-seos-or-why-seo-outing-bad#33111</div><div></div><div>Aaron Wall didn’t Sphinn this, so we can’t "blame" him for its appearance on Sphinn.</div><div></div><div>Grr, i was thinking I should’ve wrote something about this. SORRY for the misunderstanding. But I don’t blame Aaron for this. I blame sphinn. As you can tell, from all my replies, I said ’aaron can post what he wants, but this isn’t sphinn material’.</div>
@Joshua The best thing you can learn from a guru is conceptual and strategic SEO. Thats why this post is trillion times better than those redundant ’X ways to get easy links’ or ’999 tools for link analysis’. The usefulness of this post is clear - Top IM people from JAndrews, Jill, Kim to Graywolf, WBP, Rae sphunn it along with many others. How many posts can you find on Sphinn’s front page which all these 6 IM experts have Sphunn?
Joshua, the article talks about putting SEO in the wider context and examines the ethics of what SEO’s are doing in the first place, IMO very relevant for the industry and a reaction to some of the melodrama that has been around in the industry recently.
>>>But since an ’SEO leader’ says something, that makes it IM news.NO. Let me explain this clearly... This post was not IM News <b>BECAUSE</b> Aaron Wall is an industry leader. No. Instead, posts LIKE this are <b>WHY</b> Aaron Wall is an industry leader. You (a general notation for you and people who think like you), are the problem at Sphinn. If you can’t see the importance of this post, or why it is important to the SEO space or why I was totally "at attention" when reading it, then I repeat, YOU are the problem at Sphinn and you’ll never rise to the occasion of being a thought leader in this industry.
I find sphinn generally has a much lower signal-to-noise ratio than I’d like, and there are lots of articles on the front page that I’m surprised to see people bookmarking...But this was an excellent article, and very relevant to the topic of "Internet Marketing News & Discussion". Lots of good info for people that backs up the author’s assertion that "SEO Outing is Bad" and even goes a step further and suggests other ways to "Help Google Clean Up the Web".@JoshuaSciarrino Read the article again, particularly the last section and consider whether it will have any influence over other people in the IM business and whether they would consider "SEO Outing is Bad". I’d say it would, and therefore is very relevant for inclusion on this site.Actually, if people want to post MORE articles like that, it’d make Sphinn a lot more useful.
Sugarrae beat me to this (and kudos to her for that!): "posts LIKE this are WHY Aaron Wall is an industry leader."And fully agree with AffanLaghari, too: "The best thing you can learn from a guru is conceptual and strategic SEO."That’s because industry leaders ("gurus", if ou will) are always the guys/gals with the broader picture and the overall repercussions in mind. (It’s what leadership is fundamentally about, after all.)You may disagree with his analogies, his political bias, his stance of cultural skepticism, whatever - placing SEO squarely in its societal context is VERY much about SEO indeed. Because (as I’ve pointed out in my blog piece) if you’re unaware of the very environment you’re operating in, the factors that inform it (and, by inference, you yourself and your actions), not only can you very reasonably be dubbed ignorant, but unprofessional to boot.All too frequently myopic articifial limitations purporting to "draw the line" somewhere (e.g. what does and what doesn’t pertain - be it "still" or "yet" - to any given topic) in the interest of "purity", "clarity" etc. will prove to be mere reflections of their respective perpetrators’ own narrowmindedness and utter lack of imagination.And let’s not forget that he didn’t simply go off on a tangential rant: his piece is 100% consistent, all his statements, whether controversial or not, are thoroughly backed up and well reasoned, so what more can you ask? (Except, but that may arguably be my own predilection speaking, more of the same - or, better, of that quality. Not that I’m holding my breath in anticipation that it’ll actually happen any time soon, doh.)It’s very, very good to see someone put things into a wider perspective if only to point out that, like it or not, there actually IS something - surprise, surprise - resembling sentient life outside the confines of the SEO industry...And IMV it’s perfectly obvious that this piece of Aaron’s was written with heartblood. And if someone claims that this kind of material does not "belong" in Sphinn, I’m inclined to wonder what the heck does. Or, worse, what Sphinn’s raison d’etre would be in the first place if pointing to such articles were to be considered off limits.
@fantomaster - I read your website quite frequently and although the language you use is a little beyond me, I bet what you’re saying is really intelligent! ;) If you do indeed live in Belgium and English isn’t your first language, I am going to feel pretty awful about the quality of mine! :) (A point on the side: I liked your review of the topic).But seriosuly guys, surely we can open up Sphinn to more internet marketing strategy? I love this stuff! :)
@yetanotherben: yeah, I do live in Belgium (as an expat: I’m actually German), and English is indeed only my second language. But I’m quite aware that keeping it it simple isn’t exactly one of my fortes... :) Anyway, thanks for the kind words.As for Internet marketing strategy on Sphinn: isn’t that what professional SEO is all about in the first place (which is why SEM is really the more precise term anyway)?
@fantomaster Pleasure! Although, that does mean that you have indeed put me to shame! I think you’ve hit the nail on the head: ’professional SEO’ ...this is what Aaron and Peter have been touching on more and more lately...less about techniques as such and more about top-level professionalism in techniques...In my mind this is awesome stuff and directly relates to have we operate as SEO’s...
Obviously no one wants to talk about this intelligently. Or even help me understand ’how is this directly about im’. I’m open to hear opinions differing to my own but when there are personal attacks or people debating me and not the issue (since their responses show they just came here to attack me and have not read any of my replies). I have to remove myself from the discussion. Since the debate is no longer a debate, it’s talking to a wall.<div></div><div></div><div>If any of you actually want to discuss this. I’m available for the next few hours, or just leave a message on my cell. 727-366-6474, or if that’s too personal for you. AIM/Skype: JoshuaSciarrino or Gtalk joshua.sciarrino@gmail.com</div><div></div><div></div><div>I would like to actually discuss this like human beings and not like high school, picking on the "new guy" because he says something different. I like sphinn, I’m not leaving sphinn, and I desire to continue to be apart of sphinn. Chao for now, gotta make some cash.</div><div></div><div></div><div>[PS] Don’t think for one minute "aww...we hurt your feelings". Nope, you wish. I just think it’s wise to leave the conversation since others aren’t listening, obviously...</div>
Obviously no one wants to talk about this intelligently.<div></div><div>Really? I just read the entire discussion from where I left off the other day, and I think it’s a very intelligent discussion. I don’t see people personally attacking you at all.</div><div></div><div>In fact, even Sugarrae who often comes off pretty strong did say "you" in the collective sense, not necessarily you personally.</div><div></div><div></div><div>You may want to re-read the posts with a clearer head at some point and see if you change your mind.</div><div></div><div></div><div>I understand your point (as do most others), but also disagree. This post is very much about Internet marketing.</div>
@Jill: Quite! :)And what parts of the ensuing discussion reveal as well is the lamentable fact that social skills aren’t always that easily transmittable, heh...
>>>Obviously no one wants to talk about this intelligently.Talking about something intelligently and agreeing with you that the sky is green even though everyone else can see it is crystal blue are not one in the same. No one is picking on "the new kid" though that seems to be what many newer peeps immediately throw up in lieu of an actual defense to their viewpoint. Why would anyone call you to explain yet again what has already been written here several times in black and white? Sorry but, the fact is that this thoughtful and creative piece made front page and deserved to... I know you more favor seeing press releases and "how to twitter for the 29th time" on the main page, but you’ll have to bear with those of us that actually like to read something that challenges our thought process and delivers some unique value every once in a while.
I’ll tell you what’s completely not on the topic of IM. This entire comment thread. Including this comment. Asshats.
"you’ll have to bear with those of us that actually like to read something that challenges our thought process and delivers some unique value every once in a while"Bugger. And I do so love that mindless stuff and noise...*Sad face*
Aaron wrote a phenomenal article.And though I’ve always planned to read Chomsky some day, I have not yet- now I will!
"I’ll tell you what’s completely not on the topic of IM. This entire comment thread. Including this comment. Asshats."lol. priceless.
Aaron Wall’s blog is easily in my favorite top three; I was one of the first people to vote for this story; and yes, it’s an excellent piece.But immediately after I sphunn this, I had my doubts. I realized I sphunn it mainly because I love almost everything the guy writes and thoroughly enjoyed this article. Not because it’s so relevant to internet marketing.In fact, after my expectations were set by the title and the first lines, in the end I felt the connection between the long introduction and the specific conclusions is a little bit forced or at least loose.It’s about media, and almost any train of thought about media can be directed in a way to lead us back to internet marketing and to prove almost any point in IM.Although I don’t agree with much of JoshuaSciarrino’s argument, his general sentiment I do understand: Aaron Wall seems to be the "required dose of Big Picture" to tick off for internet marketers who otherwise care much more about the latest news of how to get a followed link from a subpage of [whatever social media fad site].
@sza that’s a really excellent summary - good work.
It’s not about SEO, except the last two topics. It’s a great article but not IM material.